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but do you make exceptions in some cases?

Manya, I asked that question cuz Ros said: "Love might be a built in instinct among humans just as it is among animals."

The term 'built' means that somethings was constructed, fabricated, manufactured, made, put together, produced, assembled, set up, contrived, reared, raised, remodeled, completed, joined, perfected, finished, realized, established, created, formed, cast, forged, and/or framed, all of which are action verbs that imply some sort of 'maker' was involved in this task, no matter if that maker is/was a what or a who.

It was Ros who inadvertently set herself up for that one

I also wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence above.



Actually, I was referring to the entire passage of 1 John 4 where a link is revealed between God and love. (RE: God is Love)

I agree that love is a "natural and nurtured instinctiveness" that no doubt developed long before humankind became aware enough to ponder and reflect upon the meaning and purpose of love. However, I believe it was during such ponderings and reflection that men and women came to the realization that the concept of love is a necessary and base attribute that leads to unity and life, while its opposite (fear) leads to disunity and death. From this realization, humankind became aware that a higher power must be at work, namely, the power of love and life, and they gave that power a name. (eg. God)

So I wouldn't say that that the Hebrew's 'constructed' God. Rather, I lean more towards the idea that they finally came to the realization that God is the fullest expression of Love (noun) and that the breath of that love (verb) is what gives Life.

IOW, the power and forces of love and life have always been present, and they will always be present, but our awareness of these powers and forces as the creative source of everything has not always been with us. It is only when we ponder and meditate upon them that we come to realize and understand that Love gives rise to life, meaning the fullest expression of applied Love is what creates life.

1 John 4 explains that "God is Love" as the Hebrews understood it, while the texts of other religions and philosophies say it in similar ways.

Oh, and if you can accept what Simeon says in Luke 2 (25-32), then the salvation of the Hebrews (Jesus) was to be a revelation for the Gentiles, meaning the Gentiles were destined to become enlightened and aware enough to realize that that God is Love and that His Living Word is what gives [abundant] life...

doc

As a side note on Abortion, I'm not for it either, yet I have been there when abortions were performed. (I was an Operating Room Tech for a while)

It was my job to find all the little parts (that got cut up and sucked out) and then put them all together on a gauze pad, like a little jig saw puzzle, to make sure the entire deed was done. Often, the arms and legs were only a quarter of an long...and I shed many a tear during those times...

I don't condone abortion, but neither will I stop it. It is a matter between God and Mother. All I can do is provide comfort and reassurance in some way when the opportunity presents itself.

Love is action.

The notion that love is a feeling is highly misguided.

Love is DOING something for self and others.

We "love" our own tribe and sometimes display love to outsiders, mostly when they are in grave trouble.

That's the instinct imbedded in all the higher animals.

Love serves a purpose. Love is essential to the survival of a species.

Humans have the potential to take love to greater heights......and some do.

Pax!

I think I'd even go further and say that Love is an action based upon the premise that life is both sacred and fragile: That love, expressed in the form of compassion, understanding, forgiveness, and humble servitude, is what creates [abundant] life. And while love's basic function may have evolved as a means to promote survival, I am of the mind that love is the means by which we realize and understand how it is we are united as one with all that is.

I find it odd that people who are atheists had no choice other than to become one.

Could you elaborate a little on that statement..

clean'

Logos, if love is essential to the survival of the species, and that the instinct of love is embedded in the
higher animals...Please explain how the lower animals survived prior to the arrival of the "higher animals"
who had the love "instinct"...

clean'

Yes I do... As a purely personal moral stance (If I were a woman). I would never claim to tell a woman what to do. I don't think abortion is murder, but only that it cuts off a conscious being's choice to incarnate into the world through that particular woman. I do think it creates negative Karma in some instances. So, in all actuality I am a world away from Clean's type of anti-abortionism. Bottom line, I am pro choice, but if the choice were mine I would in most cases go through with the birth.

Did you "choose" to disbelieve in Santa or was it more of a realization? It's hard to explain how a person does not choose disbelief.

If I told you I flapped my arms and flew to work this morning what is the first thing that goes through your head? Do you disbelieve my claim? Did you choose to disbelieve me or was it more of a default position and no choice in belief was actually made?

I can't say to myself, "Ok, I'm going to believe in god from now on". It doesn't work that way. Just like a religious person can not turn around and decide not to believe. You either do or you don't.

"I find it odd that people who are atheists had no choice other than to become one".

Unlike you CS, who choses to believe after knowing the bible lies. With all its inconsistences, its fabricated stories, you still push the lies. That's odd. That's more than odd imo, as you've made yourself an enabler of the death cult.

That explains my position pretty well also, except for the father who I see as taking the rights away from the woman due to his contribution to reproduction. I think if he wants the child then he should be given the child and the mother's responsibility severed. This would avoid the abortion act in many cases. But the best prevention of abortion is prevention of pregnancy and until people understand means are available to prevent pregnancy then the problem of what to do will continue to be an ugly issue on both sides. I'm wondering why Tiller did not insist on tubals for his patients, or even having tubals as part of his policy agreement procedure in treating women.

Not so fast Doc, you haven't proven anything yet. When I say "built-in", the indication is that of an existing part of the human development, as it evolves through the developmental stage. However, just as with animals not all humans are endowed with the trait. The human brain that does not function cannot love. It's without emotion, without the sense of feeling.

The Hebrew god was a scribal socio-psychopath. Your reference to "god" is always within this framework of the Hebrew god. He wasn't a higher power, nor an all loving god of all mankind. You have done nothing more than let your imagination run away with you. He was a monster created by the Hebrews who invented their god, and for themselves alone. "Love" was a kinship of Hebrews/Israelites/Jews and it's purpose was to keep united the sons of Jacob. Biblical "love" is not extended to the world and the bible god held no love for other peoples of the world. The scribal writers had no love for other people and it would have been to their disadvantage to present their god as loving other people. The scribal writers were filled with hate for other people.

You could easily give credit for "love" to any other god of your choice. You could easily quote from hundreds of philosophers about love. But, you've chosen to give credit to Hebrew psychopaths in their anti-social attitudes and genocidal behavior simply because they wrote: "Thus saith the Lord".

I would definetly say that the Hebrews constructed their idol-"god". You don't see any other people taking credit for writing those stories do you? It's a Jewish construct throughout both testaments to its record. We can choose to belief the Hebrew tales or we can move on to reality of those times. And reality says superstition and imagined gods were false beliefs but Hebrews were not educated or allowed to object to falsehoods in those days. Speaking against the writers pen was a death sentence, as it was speaking against the superstition. And, as Hebrews were not allowed to partake of other cultural knowledge and confined[bound] to their own, the Hebrews remained dumbed-down in their pious hate filled religious attitude. The world was the sinners and the Hebrews were the chosen people. And with an invisible idol to worship.

Ros,
As it pertains to love being a "built-in" issue, I figure God put the ability to love in place at the most fundamental level of our evolutionary path, although it seems love can only be expressed and appreciated by vertebrates that have opiate receptor sites. As it pertains to the Hebrew God being a construct of man's imagination, I lean more towards the idea that self-realization and awareness plays a big role when it comes to the overall concept of God.

By this, I mean to say that God is never changing, similar to what is written in Hebrews 13:8 (Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.) However, man's perception of God is always changing, and it is often based upon his own 'level of spirituality', as it were, meaning those believers who are goverened by such [spiritual] attributes as shame, guilt, and fear will respectively view God as being despising, vindictive and punitive, while those whose spirituality is goverened more by trust, optimism, and reverence for life will respectively view God as being enabling, inspiring, and Loving. And for those believers who are goverened more by reason, and view life as being meaningful, then God is perceived to be wise and just. Ultimately, those who view life as being ineffably joyful and peaceful will view the 'God State' as "being at one with the self".

That said, most of us are aware that the [Biblical] Israelite Nation consisted of the most hated, the most despicable, and the most unruly and irreverent bunch of SOB's on the entire planet. The overall spirit of that nation was primarily goverened by attributes that were less than loving and kind, being more in line with fear, hatred, anger, lust, and pride, all of which tend to skew the perception of an eternal changeless and loving God towards such personifications as Vengefullness, Condemnation, and Punishment. So it was that a lot of brutal acts were carried out by a brutal people in brutal times. It was because their overall spirituality and awareness could not be expressed as the more notable and unified acts associated with love, joy, and peace.

Humankind has progressed a little bit since those days but all believers perceive God, not as He truly is, but by the lenses of our own spirituality, whether that spirituality be in the form of love, hate, anger, reason, acceptance, love, or joy. And because of this, it is fairly easy to discern the spirituality of certain individuals by the way they talk about God. For example, those who talk about God as being punitive and vindictive often have a lot of guilt, blame, anger and fear in their lives, while those who talk about God as being benevolent, kind, and loving often have a lot of love, acceptance and peace in their own lives. So each perceives God, not as He really is, but by what is going on in their lives as well as what is hoped for in their lives.

So where we read about the horrors the Israelites inflicted upon others, or where we read how God told them to wipe out entire populations, or where we read about how the death penalty was used for what we consider to be minor infractions, we recognize that they had a along way to go before the spirituality of Christ could be expressed though them, which is what finally happened as a result of the line of David doing its best to abide by the Mosaic Laws. So we can determine the overall spirituality of the writers and the people of those days by the way they perceived God, knowing full well that they were not a perfect people but were, in fact, the scum at the bottom of the human barrel.

Yet at the same time the Scriptures reveal that, with a little faith, belief, discipline, and obedience, even rapists, murderers, and those whom we would consider to be the scum of the earth, can be a vessel of God's Eternal Love and Mercy. That is why the Israelites were 'chosen', not because they were the 'most perfect and beloved-by-God' people. NO, It was because they were the worst lot of the most damned sinners on the whole planet. God chose to do His Good Work through them as a testament to His Loving Mercy, and He did this patiently and over time in such a way as to clean them up enough for Jesus to shine through them, not only as salvation for the Jews, but as a Revelation for the Gentiles as well.

So the bottom line, as it pertains to our faith and belief as we read Scripture and how we view God, is often dependant upon our own spirituality. Are we full of shame, fear, guilt and pride? or do we tend to be more kind, considerate, reasonable and loving? Or are we at a place that is totally different from all these attributes?

I would say that each and everyone of us probably has a little of each of these in us, but how many of us (besides Logos) can truly say that we are totally one and the same with the pure and perfect consciousness that we believe God is?

doc

CoolH. is about the only one I can think of......although several here are quite mature.

It's almost time for some of us to move on to our next assignment.

We are getting far too close to true human beingness.

And hey......God is not so perfect as your FundaGelical programming might cause you to believe.

Pax!

Doc, Jesus will never shine through the Jewish conception of Yahweh. Thus, the Hebrew thunder god cannot change. OT God speaks against NT Jesus, giving Jesus no authority.

Jews were Jews regardless of their crimes against humanity. As Jews, Yahweh could not rid himself of them because of the promises he had made to the bible hero's such as David. The writers confined their Hebrew god in chains, made him their servant, and spoke for him through the prophets mouths. "Thus saith the Lord" was the lying prophet either accusing Israel or excusing Israel in her sins.

"Sins" were know through the laws. Laws were given to Israel only. In the NT story, Peter is the first apostle to change the laws of his God, and Peter is shown a hypocrit, liar and deceiver by his old scriptural texts written. Compare the books.

The Hebrew god is not shown to be perfect, he repented more than once. Which means he goofed up on more than one occassion. Which means, the writers detoured their God through many revisions thinking no one would notice or that their revision was compatable enough to keep the pants on their Hebrew god. If anything, the bible can be used for study material on hate and how hate can destroy the minds of people who practice it. Israelites practiced it, Jews practiced it and still practice it. Christians[Gentiles] learned to hate and practice it. People with intelligence enough to burn the BS did so and never thought to teach their children from it's death cult passages. These people are not in fear, self-loathing or feel guilty. These people realize they are not sinners because a spiteful renegade of assholes in the middle east decided to accuse innocent people of being criminals.