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Well, isn't it odd that a self professed learned Pharisee such as Paul would not have taught "grace" according to his old testament doctrine? After all, it was said in the OT that all[of Israel] there were none righteous, no not one, for all had sinned against their Hebrew god and come short of his glory by their sins.

The point is, that grace was already a part of Judaism's doctrinal teaching but Paul pretended it was something new for Gentiles. Suddenly grace and salvation had come to the Gentiles also, just as the Jews had always been priviledged to it. And at a particular time of need for Jews. However grace was never part of Gods plan for Gentiles as he hated them and wanted them exterminated, killing everything that breatheth, leaving nothing alive. And God didn't change his mind, but Peter and Paul saw a way to circumvent the words of God and give the Gentiles "hope" and in return of that hope, there was a good chance that the Gentiles would not kill every Jew that had breath within him. Remember, hope is all they would get due to the Hebrew God's commandments of independence from people who were not sons of Jacob. God had told the Israelites how to proceed in deceiving the Gentile peoples, the Gentiles were to be slaves for Israel. (Deut.20:16) Interesting that Jesus, Paul or Peter didn't mention what God had really spoken, isn't it. But the parables and Paul's gospel were set to deceive. For the "mysteries of the kingdom of God" were not given to the Gentiles. But hope could work its magic in building a shield of protection around the Jewish people and their tradition. For Paul made it clear that because the Gentiles had received the "spiritual" things from the Jews, they should recompense that reward by giving the Jews material things in taking care of the Jews. Material things would of course include the protective strength of Gentile power. And so it was that deceit was sanctioned by the Hebrew god through the prophets mouth. Why then, as Paul would say of himself, be called a sinner for his lie, when he was, as Jesus was, as Peter was, permitted to lie to Gentiles. Lies were only prohibited when against brethren Israelites/Jews. Just as Israelites were commanded not to kill each other but were commanded by their god to kill and destroy all other non Israelites.

So what have I done with the story? I've opened up the conspiracy of Paul to use the Gentiles for his purpose of protecting his fellow Jews. The Gentiles would be given hope, while the Jews maintained their inheritance and their identity as Israel through the power of Gentile strength.

Fortunately for me, I was never a Baptist. I was never locked into what other people
said about the Bible. I'm non-denominational. I rejected many church doctrines because they were contradictory. I have seen many abuses in the church. I don't defend the so called "church". I defend what I believe and know to be true about God. Much the same as you Ros. You defend what you believe about atheism.

Just a question tho'....what do you believe about atheism that attracted you to it?
Did you ever go to another church to find out if they believed the same thing that the
baptists believed? Ok..two questions.
All churches do not believe the same thing, you know...
I told another poster that if I had been a calvinist, that I may have turned into an atheist too. Their doctrines are wrong in so many ways.

What will I do? There is nothing outside of Jesus Christ that I find satisfying. My life was a mess for 28 years. I know what it is to be without Him. I don't want to go through that again. I'm not trying to force anything on you. I'm simply telling you what I have experienced. You made your choice, and I respect that, and I have made mine.

I am going to worship and serve the Lord Jesus Christ till the day I die. Whether you believe that He is real or not is for you to decide. But, find out for yourself. Don't depend
on the Baptists, Methodists, or any other church to establish what you believe.
Ultimately, it is you and God...no middle man....I refuse to let a certain denomination turn
me into an atheist because of their crazy theology that no one with a brain can accept.


just saying...

clean'

Maybe. Or maybe it's because people are conditioned from birth to believe. I have never needed the belief in an exteral force encouraging me to improve something in my life so I can't relate.

I didn't know when I started replying to your comment that I was going to be agreeing with you. That is exactly what happened to me. I realized being agnostic is just silly after reading a bit. We have learnt about gods because of religions and superstition. For me there is no logical reason to believe in a god outside of religion and superstition either.

I hope no one minds me answering since the question wasn't directed at me.

There is nothing "about" Atheism. Atheists do not believe this or that, they are not asked to do anything or act in any way. Atheism is the disbelief in gods. There is no choice to become Atheist, just like there is no choice to love someone. You either do or you don't.

People usually stop being a Theist because, in my opinion, they learnt enough about their religion to realized the lies behind it.

It is true that some folks give up their belief in the face of lies and contradictions, but what about the positive aspects which are also associated with a belief in God?

For me, my belief in God is not a matter of contradiction and lies, being more about expressing and supporting love, justice, compassion, servitude, humility, and self-sacrifice, especially in the face of doubt, uncertainty and the ever-present aspects of human suffering that often arise as a result of expressed lies and contradictions.

Having belief in God allows me to look beyond these latter aspects of life with the hope of discovering some way or means to help make life that much more 'abundant' for those who are undergoing the pangs of suffering, poverty, oppression, and general hopelessness and despair. In other words, my belief in God, not only gives me something to look up to and grab onto in times of human misery and sorrow, but it also allows me to express my gratitude and thanks towards the powers and principles which can effectively resolve that suffering and misery, powers and principles which are based more in the certainty of applied love than in the realization of specific perceived lies and contradictions.

It has always been my opinion that the time we spend focusing upon lies and contradicitions takes away from the time we could be spending on more notable and positive issues, such as allowing the idea of God to work in and through us in ways that will help to create a little more heaven, and a little less hell, on earth.

Having said all that, I really don't give a rat's behind if one believes in God or not. But I also figure that anyone who belives in and lives by the idea that 'the applied powers and principles of love conquers all' is a believer in God whether or not they themselves believe that God even exists.


doc

You are prone to philosophize doc. Which is a good thing. A man of jurisprudence, or is that Jewish prudence? Whatever.

I don't understand why you think the applied principles of love needs give credit to a Hebrew tribal god of hate and contempt for humanity. People loved and cared for each other long before the Hebrew god was constructed for Israel. Love might be a built in instinct among humans just as it is among animals. What do you think?

Well Manya, anyone here could have told you, "that just goes to show ya",

CS, I was an Independent Baptist, not a member of the SBC. We Independents were not as strict as those other goofy Baptists. We weren't required to go to church on Sundays, or support our church with tithes. The preacher had a job so he wasn't a believer in playing money games. "Freely ye have received, freely give". People should not have to pay to learn about God and Jesus. This included book sales and considered a money gimmic for greedy men. Whereas those other Baptists were full in bed with the evangelicals who were making a killing off lies and deception, and could and still not ever get enough money to satisfy their greed.

So.. you're going to serve the Lord Jesus Christ till the day you die. Ok, I can tolerate that just as long as you're not ready to jump on the bloody bandwagon of killing innocent people in Jesus name, like the Bushites who provoked a needless religious war and are still wallowing in the afterglow of their torturous campaign.

Atheism didn't, as you think, attract me. I merely studied religion, reasearched as best I could, investigated the claims and said, bullshit. What I found was that the whole bible speaks at the hand of scribes and other writers as they plotted and supported the death of non Jewish humanity. In its hatred and death blood cult, when fearing its extinction, suddenly a few deceitful and wickedly abnoxious characters decided to play on the stupidity of Gentiles, thus Christianity was formed. That's how I understood the story in it's so called "passion of Christ". So with that, and all the other ridiculous superstitions and just plain idiocy within its form, I became a disbeliever, gave Jesus back to the Jews, and have been extremely happy and satisfied with my life ever since.

I happen to believe God is Love, with 'love' being more of a verb than a noun..
(Put on your Jesus sandals and read 1 John 4)

And yet, if love is a 'built in instinct', then who do you suppose 'built' in in there?

No Ros....I'm not into killing innocent people....including very, very small people who haven't come out
of the mothers' womb yet.


clean'

I'm with Clean on that. I am not for abortion either.

By asking who built it in there your question already assumes someone built in the love instinct. Maybe it wasn't built in but developed. Loving someone makes you care about their wellbeing. If you care about their wellbeing and look after them their chances of survival increases. It is an evolutionary trait.

You don't need a belief in a god to express and support love, justice, compassion, servitude, humility, and self-sacrifice. I think a person who acts this way because they want to is better than a person who acts this way because they believe they are commanded to.

Not "who" built it in there, but what. The what is natural and nurtured instinctiveness in both animals and humans. How did ancient man develop this instinct of love millions of years before the Hebrew god was constructed by men? Not knowing anything about a Hebrew god and the Hebrew god not existing in the minds of ancient ancient peoples, there must have been something that triggered the senses into the nuturing mode, and primarily for the cause of reproduction. Breast feeding was a form of love of survival. Bonding with the nurturer had its benefits as man learned to form groups. Learning to be loyal to ones kinsmen eventually was taught as "love your neighbor as yourself" millions of years later. The Hebrews of course had no studied interest in biological adaptness or evolution. Hebrews were a superstitous people who believed what their forefathers had told them about a thunder god on Mt. Sinai. But long milliniums ago and in far distant places, there was no bible god, therefore. I can't give an imagined invisible idol credit for what he has not done.

1 John 4? vs4......."ye are of god little children". They were of god, instructed from their forefathers, prophets, sages, priests, seer's, shamen, tribal witch doctors, etc. They knew nothing else but what they had been taught in their tradition of superstition and gods.

The term "children" in the story always refers to the people of Israel, no others. And the term "children" presents them as people, adults, who were still learning. "Children of Israel" identifies sons of Jacob in the 12 names, later to be called Israel, and called a nation of 12 tribes, also a congregation, and a great host of heaven.

Well, that's fine and good for you CS. How do you explain the god you worship in his belief of genocide and abortion, (Jesus believed the same as his God), the ripping up of women whom he hated because they were not of Israel?

In the army of Moses, the Israelites carried swords that were curved and the ripping-upward of pregnant women from pelvis to sternum was a much easier process of abortion than using a straight-edge. Pregnant women of Canaan could not be allowed to live because their offspring could grow into teenagers and adults who would rise-up and fight the Israelites, and maybe defeat the Israelites in revenge. Moses knew that people in Canaan land would not forget his genocidal maniacs. Moses was an abortionist in his terror campaign of doing what God had commanded him to do. But God is an abortionist also. The only people God deemed worthy of life were the Israelites.