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"blood of the cross". Human sacrifice. Wasn't it the Mayans among other ancient people who also practiced human sacrifice? They'd select their sacrifice, or a volunteer would offer himself on an altar. Then the chef or witchdoctor or shaman would pierce his chest and literally pull out the heart with his bare hands, hold it up to the crowd of onlookers and then to his god heavenward. Appeasement to whatever god, a practice that smart people finally discontinued, except for the Jewish Jesus who found human sacrifice was a method of persuasion and not a thing of the past as he employed it in his dying and rising doctrine. The blood-letting cross. Appease your god if you want, but I no longer want any part of that psycho drama.

Quoting the Bible, "The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin."
Here is why I believe that sooner or later that will include everyone.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... in-all.htm
scroll down to GOD ALL IN ALL

"Quoting the Bible, "The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.""

Who says that is in the real true actual Bible? On whose authority?
Who says' the 'New' testament has any authority? And on whose authority is that statement validated?

Why would a god that utterly destroyed a whole world and all upon it (except 8 souls) suddenly change into a 'welcome everybody' deity? Did he have a session with a Cosmic Counsellor?

If you rely on the 'new' testament for your spiritual health and salvation you are decidedly dodgy ground.

Some geezer (you don't know his (or her) real identity) writes (sometime unknown in the early centuries CE) "the blood of Christ cleanses from sin" and you go, "That'll do for me."

That rash confidence is seriously worrying for moi but each to his own.

This article explains why I believe like I do.
Check it out if you feel so inclined.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... in-all.htm

Everyone will search for whatever helps them cope with life the best.
This quote from Dr. Leslie Weatherhead is what helps me the most to cope with life.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”

Rodgertutt, what is your understanding of Christ having died once for all sin? Do you think the meaning is that Christ continues to die over and over again in order to cleanse sinners, because people who believe in Christ continue to sin? Also, have you read in the story that it's impossible for Christ to suffer death a second time or many times crucifying him over and over again and again? Having died once, that was it. For the sins of many he died that one time. How do you explain this continual crucifying of Christ? I don't think I've ever seen this addressed by scholars or laymen in their teaching.

What I'm seeing is a continuing ritual in human sacrifice of one man, Jesus, by Christians. It's a never ending practice of nailing Jesus to the cross in their attempt to redeem themselves from sins. And, if Jesus was raised from that death on the cross once, not having to be raised again, (for that would be impossible according to the story), and Jesus cannot be killed a second time, what is going on with Christians? I propose that they do not understand that Jesus died one time only for sinners and rose from the dead, and would not die a second time for them should they sin after knowing they were redeemed. When Jesus instructed to "go and sin no more" he based his instruction on his not being subject to a second crucifiction[his human sacrifice] or a third or thousands more. In other words, Jesus basically was saying: Get your act together and do not sin, for I won't be around to pull your butt out of the frying pan.

Or.. if it were a never ending sacrifice that supplied a never ending blood bath, it would enforce a death to sin. No more sin, no more death. No more punishment, all offenses forgiven. Therein, no more need for God or Jesus. No judgments at a great white throne, no more heaven as heaven would be on earth: "Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as in heaven" is a completed enviroment here and now.

Rodger:
"Everyone will search for whatever helps them cope with life the best.
This quote from Dr. Leslie Weatherhead is what helps me the most to cope with life.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”"

Well, if it floats your boat then so be it. however it does not make it true. Your faith in Gary Amirault and his ideas is touching however it does not mean that he is correct.

And Rodger you skirted my questions : "Who says that is in the real true actual Bible? On whose authority?
Who says' the 'New' testament has any authority? And on whose authority is that statement validated?"

no Chriistian believer of any hue has ever answered those questions and neither have they answered , from whence did Saul/Paul derive his authority to damn the Law, declare Moses a deceiver and contradict Jesus at almost every turn?

Some answers please and preferably not another paste of tentmaker articles as I read them all years ago.

I don't think Christians can answer that particular question CH. They can only regurgitate the same swallowed crap. (constructed rantings and propaganda)

I'm wondering, what do today's rabbi's say about the "real true actual Bible" as it was destroyed many times in wars and created again from scribal memory. What authority could there be claimed other than the Jewish hand?

Paul damned the law for Gentiles but kept it as authority for the Jews. No equalizing in that manner of speaking. But the Gentiles had little or no education in Jewish laws and why would they have been interested anyway? Gentiles as idol worshippers were satisfied with their own laws of the land and their own gods of worship. I cannot figure out why leaders in Rome wanted to steal the Hebrew bible and claim it as their own and force people to accept it as a Gentile inheritance or whatever. Stealing from the Jews their identity as the chosen people and claiming "we are the chosen new people". I don't think it was for land as Rome already controled Jerusalem. Rome didn't put Jews to slavery so that wasn't the purpose of creating a new people for the Jewish god. Definetly a strange event in history.

My sole purpose for posting on forums is to share evidence that the Bible, literally translated, does not teach that God will let anyone suffer forever. All other issues are infinitely secondary to me, so that is why I ignore responding to them.

I am a "Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist."
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... tution.htm
See especially the very last paragraph on that link.

I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in sin and suffering.

I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.

I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do.

I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.

Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”

Regarding “the son of perdition” click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThr ... ained.html
then scroll down to
THE SON OF PERDITION

SATAN’S SALVATION ETCETERA - Grace super-exceeding!!!

THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
an online scriptural expostion
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm

It would have been easy for God to impress upon Satan that it would not temporarily be in his best interest to choose evil, but God didn’t do that because He had (has) an eonian plan to use the temporary existence of evil and suffering to teach lessons. Then at the consummation of God’s plan for the ages of time God will eradicate evil and suffering from existence.
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Since all of creation is in the Son of God’s love, through Whom God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens, there is no more reason to suppose that Satan (and Judas and Hitler and Stalin) are not included therein than that any other creature is not included therein.

Therefore, it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan”) necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.

A time is coming when Satan himself, the instigator of human opposition and dissension will be beneath our feet. Rom. 16:20.
Now he dominates the actions of many a saint. But later his place and power will be taken from him and we will be above him, able to subdue and control the one who, next to our flesh, was the cause of most of our miseries. Just as the enemies of Christ will figuratively find themselves a footstool for His feet, so will the greatest of all our enemies be placed beneath our power.

But best of all, we will not retaliate. We will not use our authority to further alienate and estrange Satan from God or from ourselves. We, to whom conciliation was first presented, will be conciliatory to all, and be able to bring back all our enemies into the circle of friendship and conciliation with God.

Doubtless due to Satan’s machinations, we cannot now even bring about peace among ourselves. But then all our own differences will have been dissolved, and we will be able to bring it to our erstwhile enemy in the spirit world, the Adversary himself.

Satan is an enemy of God, and must be included among the enemies reconciled to God by the blood of Christ's cross, one of those "in heaven." Since death is the last enemy, then Satan must be reconciled to God prior to the destruction of death, and the subsequent emptying of death, and the presentation of the whole reconciled universe to God, when God becomes All in all.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... eavens.htm

C.S. Lewis wrote, “The greatest surprise for Satan will occur when he learns that he has been perfectly doing the will of God all along.”

Personally I think the greatest demonstration of God’s grace in action among the celestials will be when Satan bows in humble submission and love in front of His Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

I think that everyone who needs it will experience just the right amount of what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means "age-during corrective chastisement."

See http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... e-Eby.html

I BELIEVE THAT NO ONE IS BEYOND THE REACH OF GOD'S GRACE WHICH IS ABLE TO SUCCESSFULLY INFLUENCE THE MOST STUBBORN OF WILLS AND WILL NOT FAIL TO DO SO.

We universal reconciliationists believe that because of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better that it happened for everyone, and when evil and suffering has served God’s eonian purpose, God will eradicate them both from existence.

CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin (an online scriptural exposition)
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... /index.htm
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute ... hrist.html
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm

Rodgertutt, most Christian people reading the bible will believe what Jesus taught - that sinners will burn in hell forever right alongside Satan and his demons. They see your tentmaker article as denying Jesus words. So, basically, you're saying that Jesus lied. Literally.

How are book sales? Are you planning to go on TBN or some other religious broadcasting?

Rodger, I do appreciate your viewpoint, but one thing puzzles me about all Christian schemes I've seen so far:
Is God all loving?
Is God all powerful?
If yes to both questions then why is there evil in the world?

Personally I believe "evil" doesn't really exist in an absolute sense. It mostly boils down to something "bad" happening that we personally don't like or that effects us adversely. In fact, there is no real separation between "God" and his/her/its "creation." The separation is an illusion, a dream that we all buy into at a very deep level but is ultimately unreal.

So what of hell? It is unreal. What of heaven? It is unreal. In fact nothing really exists. The ultimate truth is "not two".

When we have have neither attachment or aversion, neither heaven or hell then we are waking up to who we really were all along.
Equanimity = Peace

Hi Jedi

I think "evil" is a descriptive term describing the degree of offensiveness. "Abomination" is another, and "wickedness".

Jesus mentioned "the greater sin" when being interrogated by Pilate. Jesus was probably referring to Caesar as having the greater sin.

I think what Rodger is talking about is called "faith." (See my signature.)

Yes, I think there are perceived degrees, but that these are as unreal as anything else. Even "good" does not exist. These are polarities, opposites, in truth there is nothing but one attributeless whole. All forms are untrue, a dream... this is called non-dual philosophy and I think it is true. It explains things much more elegantly than dualistic philosophies, IMO.

I think he may well be correct about portions of scripture. Actually, I don't think the writers of the NT were even concerned about a coherent theology so they can be used to support any position.