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Watching Dr. Phil today I wasn't surprised to hear that the reason equal rights was overturned in California for Christian belief in OT commandments. Denying those same commandments binding on Christians, the Christians use those commandments to force their church beliefs onto the public square.

So this being the case for the Christians in their being against same sex couples, (and same sex couples raising children), why does the gay community not use the bible against the Christians? Why don't they challenge the Christians to show where in the OT that god gave those statutes and laws to any other people than the Israelites? In the NT story, Jesus didn't go after the gay community in his agenda to build a Jewish sect to take over Jerusalem. Although I would imagine that Jesus the Jew would have obeyed commandments given to his people and not allowed gays to be part of his New Jerusalem plan. But the point is, Gentiles were never part of the receiving of commandments.

I really think that until the gay community decides to use the bible against the Christians, they are not going to change laws to their favor.They seemed to have tried everything else.

What do you think?

I think in a democracy the majority makes the rules, although money can go a long way to get a vote. So perhaps the gay community needs lobbyists who can afford to swing the votes?

As far as getting folks to accept that the tenets and principles of the Bible were not meant for them, but were meant for the Jews alone, good luck...Such a tactic would make about as much headway in the real world as you have made here, meaning not only have you made little to no progress in getting others to accept your arguments, but it appears as though the wide and varied cross-section of the population present at this forum actually finds your arguments somewhat caustic, unpalatable, and even repulsive, thus entrenching them even deeper into their own current beliefs.

Perhaps a more sound tactic would be to show others the better way of their own beliefs, as opposed to trying to get them to pull a full stop or even a 180 turn-around, cuz sometimes throwing them a curve they can accept works better than trying to bowl them completely over.

IOW, take small careful steps...and lead them on a long and slow continuous curve until they have turned completely away from their previous ways...

doc

Doc said

"I think in a democracy the majority makes the rules.

Sorry Doc that isn't quite so...there are many examples where the majority was overruled by rule of law...the law not allowing mixed marriages come to mind and the state of Mississippi or was it Alabama in allowing blacks to go to school with whites.

The religious right believe that being gay is a choice,therefore they are in sin therefore they can justify their homophobia and bigotry feel good about it and themselves...by the way...they are running out of groups to hate all they have left is abortion and gays.

I also agree with Roselyn and have said for years that Gentiles were never under the law and still aren't so they don't apply and I also agree with her that they should use their bible against them.

It is a question of civil rights not religious beliefs...they are citizens of this country and their civil rights are being violated no matter what a person thinks about marriage...what bothers me most is why these people think it's any of their business what others do with their lives.

It's my understanding of the constitutional process is that it protects the rights of the minorities, such as the equal rights for gays.

Reading American history tells how at one point in time black slaves were not permitted to marry each other. Plantation life of slaves was fully controlled by their overlords. The bible was used to keep them enslaved. They also could not own property of land or other types of investments. They could not even claim their own children. The "master of the house" decided who married who and who was to be sold or kept. Blacks were treated as animals in selling of their children. AND, AGAIN, THE BIBLE WAS USED TO SUPPORT THAT SLAVERY.Then later still, blacks were not permitted to marry whites. All this inequality of slavery in America stemmed from the bible and the ignorant whites not paying attention to detail of classification, meaning, to whom those biblical laws, statutes and ordinances were given.

Whatever applied to Israel in ancient days did not apply to the world outside that Israeli community. It's a matter of reading the bible and understanding to whom and for what reasons that story is directed in its purpose. Not everyone in those ancient days could be sons of Jacob without either being born in the house of Jacob or being adopted into that house via converting. ALL other people were not Israel and all other people did not claim the Hebrew god; and the laws of Israel were never meant to be for the whole world. Else, Israel would hold no identity of its own.

Doc, the wide audience here very well may find my arguments caustic, unpalatable, annoying, and even repulsive, but my arguments stand as truth to the Jewish identity in that bible record story that doesn't include Gentile imposition of Catholic and Protestant self-proclaimed "sons". Only the Jewish people have right to their own identity as it is laid out in their laws and ordinances. And it is these laws and ordinances that the whole of Christianity deny as valid for themselves. So why is it then that the Christian Right insists on forcing those Jewish ancient laws on people that those laws do not apply to? I will tell you why. It's because these self-made preachers are so ignorant of ancient traditions in ancient people, that they refuse to educate themselves for fear of losing what little credibility they have left, which is not very much, and only seen in some as the sincere desire to live truth. Well, if they want to live in truth then it's about time they began to investigate and do research and discover that they have no right to impose their crooked ideology on anyone.

Again, the only way that I can see to end this awful situation between the slave holders and the slaves is for the slaves to use the bible against them.

I am sick of hearing "the bible tells us, the bible tells us".. when in actuality, the bible doesn't tell us anything. It tells the Israeli people, the Jews, what to do and what not to do. Other than that, the bible has no authority on the world or non-Jewish Americans.

While I'm pointing these things out to you doc, you and the wide audience of readers here, might want to "search the scriptures" and tell me where Jesus made a New Covenant with any Gentiles. It isn't there, nor was the story intending for such a foolish thing to be there. You might also want to do your research on proseltyes and "God fearers" as these were in the process of converting to Judaism. OR might you have been thinking that Jesus was recruiting people to worship the Roman gods in Jupiter or Mars or Caesar? You might also want to read the story again where Jesus says he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Or where Jesus said that the righteous Jews he was not sent to save, but the sinners who were transgressors of law.

Or you just may be one of the many people who want to keep the biggest lie in history going so that it continues to destroy people's lives in their ignorant use of the bible.

You also might want to stick to the issues discussed instead of throwing insults at me personally.

Hi Fritz,
I agree it's an issue of civil rights, and I also agree that we should not tell others how to live their lives unless, of course, they're violating someone else's civil rights, in which case additional laws must be mandated and enforced to protect those rights.

And while Gentiles are not goverened by the Mosaic Laws, which were, in fact, meant for the Israelite nation, it seems that there are several millions of people who have adopted and live by the main precepts of those laws, (i.e. thou shalt not steal, murder, or falsely testify, etc.,) as well as choosing to live by the more benevolent aspects, such as loving one's neighbor and contributing to society in a beneficial manner, etc.

That said, I currently believe the only way to reach those who force others to live by O.T. laws that a given contemporary society has adopted for themselves is to show them the reasons why those laws were created in the first place, and why those reasons no longer exist, and do this in conjunction with explaining how our inalienable right to persue liberty, freedom of choice, and happiness is paramount to the survival of that society as a whole.

As to your very last statement, I'd like to address that by saying a lot of folks are still goverened by their own fears, not yet able to express compassion and forgiveness - let alone hope and joy - in the face of diversity and/or adversity.

Resultantly, they must force others to comply with their beliefs/desires/mandates in order to allieviate their own fears, being unable to comprehend the idea that they have nothing at all to fear from those they would force into submission.

So what can be done?

One way is to convince others though our words and actions that there is nothing at all to fear, and that by loving one another we can turn our fears into the joys of hope and acceptance, thus negating any need to control the lives of one another.

So to engage and stop those who would force their beliefs and mandates onto others, we need only to convince and show them that there is nothing at all to fear, for when the fear is gone then there is nothing to fear or to fight.

The only drawback to his approach is that some folks live to fight, or at the least they enjoy the challenges of contention and competition in a manner whereby winning superiority becomes the goal.

In addition, the concept of winning superiority over an 'enemy' - whether that enemy is perceived, actual, or even as an opposing team during sporting event - has been so engrained into the human psyche that we must look for things to fight and contend over when we find ourselves experiencing the boredom of peace and quiet.

And undermining the whole "live and let live" approach to the philosophical and idealistic desires which endeavor to refrain from fear and violence, is that the society is often kept at a continuous level of fear via the media. And when we stop fearing one thing, then another fear is promoted to keep us in tow. Currently being promoted, is the fear of Islam, homosexuals, health concerns, and the failing economy, just to name a few.

And when we buy into these promoted fears, then we can be lead (often docily) towards whatever direction those who are generating the fear wants us to go, which is why we are now experiencing the sad state of affairs in which we now find ourselves.

But of course, all this is JMOHO.

doc

Roselyn,
I was not insulting you. Rather I was merely making an observation as to how some have been affected by your posts, although I have to admit that I too have found your arguments to be somewhat caustic, unpalatable, and even repulsive myself on occasion.

Furthermore, your arguments have not swayed me at all from my current beliefs, and they have indeed caused me to stand my own ground even more firmly.

So what does this tell you? It should tell you that your methods are not succeeding, at least in my case, and that you need to alter your presentation if you truly wish to make a difference, which is what my first post was designed to convey.

Other than that, there is much of what you say that I agree with, and I suppose I ought to include those concessions in my posts as well. So I will try to do so in the future.

Sorry to have stepped on your toes...

doc

To some, the following verses taken from the O.T. and the N.T. can be interpreted to mean that the Gentiles were to be included under God's Graces and Judgements.

Isaiah 42:1,6
Isaiah 49:6
Malachi 1:11
Matthew 4:15-16
Matthew 10:18
Matthew 12:18-21
Luke 2:31-32
Acts 10:45

And although I included one line in Acts that lends to answering the question as to why the Gentiles can be included in the Covenent of Christ, I refrained from using the majority of Paul's arguments as his 'gospel' has been covered many times on this forum.

It would seem then, by the few examples listed above, (and I am sure there are more), that the entire population of the planet could conceivably be included under the grace of the Judaic God, although this is a matter of interpretation, while this concept has been argued since it all began.

I would like to say, however, that in a nation where we have the right to pursue, adopt, follow, and express any belief system we desire to profess, then you will also have a hard time getting folks to abandon that which they have adopted and desire to profess, as this can be seen as violating Consitutional Rights as well.

doc

Doc, the only way I can personally make a difference and uphold equal rights for people in America, is to speak out against the Right Wing religious overlords specifically in their attempt to change laws that will harm free people. For if their laws are the rule then freedom of liberty takes a back seat to their self-conceived religion. Which is just what happened in CA.

How to better our society and protect it from the church, is to educate the Christians who perceive themselves as Gods weapon of mass destruction. If my argument sounds offensive to some, then its because those who hear or read it are or have been cushioned in a soft spoken atmosphere of their idea of a love doctrine. I understand how these Right Wingers are taught and how they are instructed to present themselves to the world. They are taught to be deceitful, and from what I've seen in the last few weeks, they are taught to be liars in order to obtain what they want. They are now using children to plant fear in the minds of people. Telling people that children will be taught how to become homosexual in school, how to date the same sex, etc. This has been proven a lie as homosexuality is not taught in schools, but equal rights in respect for all students IS taught.

Children are coming to the forefront as the Right Wing doesn't want children in the homes of parents who are homosexuals. They can't bare the thought of two daddies or two mommies raising children. The next step, in my opinion, and from what I'm hearing, is that the Right Wing will try to make laws that take children from their parents and show that parents are unfit to raise their own children. So we're not just looking at banning marriage laws for gays, we're looking at how the Religious Right Wing can, if allowed, make laws just as in the days of black slavery in America. This kind of religious rule should never be allowed.

There are many ways to show love to others. But what we are seeing is how a group of Christians, the Right Wing specifically, in their fundamentalism have been allowed to ride on a power trip for the last few years without anyone opposing their religious ideology. And, imo, if the gay community does not use the bible against this misfit religious ideology, then the gay community will continue to lose. The Religioius Right must be forced to recognize that they have no authority to set religious laws that enslave other people simply because there are no laws that govern themselves as non Jewish people.

The same applies to Christians who hate and want to kill Muslims simply because they are Muslims.

As to your ground, it sounds much the same as mine, from your post to fritz above. I think you simply want to speak more "lovenly" in order to appease the enemy of freedom, so to speak. I really can't see how my points are offensive except to those who are accustomed to believing they have a right to tell everyone else what to do based on their erroneous reading of the bible. As yet, the gay community leaders who speak with the Religious Right Wing, have challenged the Right Wing belief. The gays have not told these Right Wingers that they have no authority given by bible commandments, because no commandments were ever given to non Israelites. This I think, is where the gay community should focus it's battle, and then we'll see how well the Right Wing can prove itself. So what this means, is that, the gay community is going to have to educate itself on WHY the commandments established for Israel was never meant to apply to anyone else. So, it seems with ignorance on both sides, there's a lot of work to be done, before there can be peace in the valley, it seems.

Doc

I don't find Roselyn anything but truthful and she doesn't offend me In anyway...as a matter of fact I like what she says...you think loving others will change the world or being loving and understanding to evil will do whats needed,however,it is needful to confront evil with resolve and with courage of conviction.

I watch the history channel a lot and know most all religions has been guilty of great evil in it's intent to subjugate their followers...religion has long fought science and the knowledge it brings...just the fact that gays are born the way they are and it is not just a decision to sin but a decision to be who they are that is being trampled on by those that don't wish to understand it but only impose their beliefs on another...this needs to change.

As Roselyn said,since I also saw Dr. Phil (my wife watches it) and did listen since I was interested and was appled that these people tried to use children as a weapon...how could these morons possibly think that they can keep the children their children go to school with in the closet that have same sex parents,without being their usual nasty selves and comdeming those parents and sinners or somehow evil...so very sad.

Just as over the years racism is slowly being done away with so will the stigma of being gay...a persident of mixed parentage is a good start...don't you agree?

Good post, Roselyn, and much better presented.

I have only one comment, and it is directed at this one statement you made:
"If my argument sounds offensive to some, then its because those who hear or read it are or have been cushioned in a soft spoken atmosphere of their idea of a love doctrine.'

Consider also that there are some, like myself, who have been so exposed to the horrors of war that they want nothing at all to do with any kind of contentious strife, recognizing how damaging such aggressive conflicts can be to the spirit of man.

Please understand that the memory of such events leads to a kind of perpetual grief, whereby the individual in question can rarely experience the joys of living while knowing so many more will be exposed to the same kind of lasting inner turmoil and despair over having witnessed and experienced the horrors of man's inhumanity towards man.

So if I appear to write "lovenly" posts, it is not because I was raised in a cushioned and soft spoken atmosphere of a love doctrine. (even if I am an old hippy ) Rather, it is because I was exposed to the greatest expressive horror of man's contentions, and I now prefer promoting the more loving and compassionate means which will gain peace between warring factions as a result of that exposure.

As a consequence, I have become very sensitised to the pain and damage which usually arises as a result of any conflict or contention, no matter how great or small that contention may be, and it is from that sensitivity that I write my posts.

doc

I agree, Fritz, but I no longer use the sword as my weapon of choice. Rather, I prefer the tools of peaceful understanding...although I have yet to learn how to use them in a beneficial and productive manner.

Could be, though, that I'm just turning into a wimpyass wuss in my old age, unwilling and unable to raise a fist against anyone anymore...So I endeavor to use compassionate pleas and words of reason, eventhough my brain appears to be falling out along with my hair, and with my heart faltering in its beats.

doc

Can't avoid the gospel "according to Paul", for it was his gospel and it was separate from the OT commandments given to Israel. I read Paul as his ends justifying his means. His lie being his allowable offense. As a Jew, he may have been taught two doctrines, one for Jews and another for Gentiles.("The Jew first and then the Gentile"). However, Paul's authority was not outside his Jewish community and his recruiting for Judaism meant conversion to Judaism. Unless one might think that Paul was recruiting people to worship another god other than the Hebrew god he believed in. We also must consider how the first church fathers revised the old testament scriptures so that Gentile imposition could be achieved via a New Testament. No longer hidden away in Catholicisim, just a little bit of research will evidence the falsehoods implimented[implanted].

Basically, the only way a Gentile could become a son of Jacob was through converting to Judaism. Jesus didn't change the laws in regard to required observance. The Gentiles[Christians] can deny it, but they can't show where Jesus made a new covenant for uncircumcised and lawless people. It just isn't there. And if Jesus could not do it, then why think that Paul was given power to do so?

Turning to the Jewish leaders themselves, in those days of Rome. Where are their treatises, their covenant expansion? It isn't there. The Jewish leaders maintained their covenant as a sealed document, with only Jewish people and converts allowed to claim rights of sons under its significance in identity as Israel.

Incorrect reading of the scriptures might lead one to envision themselves as under the rule of the Hebrew/Judaic god. But that is not the truth of the matter. Before Rome, all other peoples knew the Judiac god belonged to the Jews. With Rome, and the first church fathers came the theift of identity, the Gentile robbery of what did not belong to them. People in those days had no reading material, not anything but what the church fathers told them in opposition to what the Judaic scriptures said. The first church memberships were herer's of the scriptures of the Gentiles. They had no Jewish scripts to read, if in fact the population in those days could read at all. So what they did was relied on heresay. Whatever the church of Gentiles told people, was to be considered as truth. Can a thief be trusted? But it wasn't truth according to Jewish scriptures, Jewish scriptures that Jesus would have used in his teaching his Jewish inituates[disciples].

All references to OT scripts to prove Gentile[Christianity] as a valid argument have been exposed as false. There is not one reference to Jesus in the OT, no reference of a new covenant to be made with a lawless and uncircumcised people[Gentiles]. Those things are simply not found in the old testament.

Each reference can be discussed if need be.

Thank you Fritz for the support.

Normally I never watch Dr. Phil but saw the ad about the CA., situation and hoped to see the gay spokespersons use the bible and tell the Right Wingers why they had no authority to set laws against anyone. But it didn't happen. Maybe next time will be different. I noticed even Dr. Phil doesn't have a clue as to why old testament rules for Israel doesn't apply to anyone else.

Good points doc and why I am anti-war. Might I make a suggestion? In your appeal to peace and liberty of life, point out the evidence supplied in the bible that excludes non Jewish people. Point out the tribal ancestry in it's purpose of being a people, one group of people among many.

Doc said: "I would like to say, however, that in a nation where we have the right to pursue, adopt, follow, and express any belief system we desire to profess, then you will also have a hard time getting folks to abandon that which they have adopted and desire to profess, as this can be seen as violating Constitutional Rights as well."

But the gay community is not trying to violate the rights of the religious to express their belief as they worship in their churches. The churches have not been invaded by anyone trying to tell them what to believe or how to govern their own membership of people. That is their right within their church body of people. But as a church body, the Christian Right or Christianity as a whole does not have the right to make laws governing everyone else. Their religious church laws, whatever they may be, are confined to church policy for members, and not to be extended outside that enviroment. To do so destroys the separation of church from state. It creates a theocracy.

The church of Christians in whatever denomination has the right to ban homosexuals from their churches. In this way they govern their membership of people. They also have a right to ban murderer's, phedophiles, transexuals, and atheists according to their church laws of governance that they have created for themselves. But they do not have the right to force those church laws on everyone else outside Christianity. They as the church are living in the world but not part of the world in that their laws are not authorized outside their own body of people. And their own church embodied laws in no way lessens their civil rights as citizens of the United States. They are free to worship as they please, attend whatever schools or universities they please, work where they please, etc.

Atheists are also being blamed for all the trouble the church is having. The Religious Right Wing wants to set laws against Atheists. They must have someone or some group to blame for their inability to control their own membership, so they look outside their Christianity and accuse whoever is willing to tolerate their behavior. And they use scare tactics to threaten and coerce people into voting for their religious agenda that takes freedom and liberty away from citizens.