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You have no argument from me on that post, Roselyn, as I agree with all you have written.

Perhaps the problem lies in fine lines between the laws that protect versus the laws that govern. And whereas the majority of civil laws follow certain Biblical/Scriptural principles, (eg. those pertaining to murder, thievery, and ownership, etc.), it then becomes a difficult task to separate that which is not founded in Judeo-Christian principles from those that are.

In other words, if the majority of our civil laws are already based upon Judeo-Christian concepts and principles, then how are we - as a nation of people - to create or manage laws which are not similarly based?

The question here is at what point do we decide that, Yes, we will keep the scriptural principles forbidding murder, thievery, and those pertaining to ownership, etc., but we will not accept the principles that deal with continued prejudice, bigotry, sexism, and sexual preference?

For many, the logic is that if we follow a single law, then we must follow all of them, meaning if some of our laws are already based in and biased towards Scriptural/Biblical principles, then how is it we cannot base all of them on those same principles? And if we repeal even one of the laws, then why is it we cannot repeal all of them?

It is the similarities and commonalities between Civil laws and Scriptural laws that makes this a difficult task, because to the general populace there is no dividing line between the two, and they become identical in their intent, making the line between Church and State a seemingly seamless non-entity.

So perhaps the underlying problem is that of recognition, where the differentiating line must be drawn within the same law, keeping in mind that it is a lot easier to take the man out of religion, than it is to take religion out of the man.

doc

Doc

Sorry to burst your bubble but China had written laws a couple of thousand years before Israel and while it was still just a bunch of sheep and goat herders.

You need to find some books that give the history of what was actually going on in the world while Israel was still just a few wandering tribes.

Don't forget that even in Herods time they were a vassel of Rome and subject to their laws...read up on the destruction of the temple in 70 ad for instance...they also spent much of their history as slaves.

Those laws you ascribe to Israel were in existance long before the bible was written,minus the religious crapola of course.

Just for fun.

The oldest written parts of the Bible found were transcribed in three languages. What scholars call the Hebrew Bible (the same books Jews call the Tanakh or Written Torah and Christians call the Old Testament) was first written in Hebrew with a few chapters of the books of Ezra and Daniel recorded in Aramaic. Hebrew had long been the language of the Jewish people, so their scriptures were passed down in Hebrew. Some of the books of the Hebrew Bible may have been written as far back as 1,400 B.C.E., although most of the text was probably written between 900 and 400 B.C.E.


The Chinese writing system is one of the oldest known written languages – some of the earliest examples of ancient Chinese writing date back to over 4,000 years ago. The Chinese writing systems uses a logographic system (a series of symbols that represent a complete word or a phrase). The system consists of large Chinese symbols known as characters.


The chronology of the Sumerian language may be divided into several periods according to linguistic and historical considerations:

* Archaic Sumerian - 3100 ­ 2600 BCE
* Classical Sumerian - 2600 ­ 2300 BCENeo-Sumerian - 2300 ­ 2000 BCE
* Post-Sumerian - 2000 ­ 100 BCE

From the beginning of the second millennium, Babylonians and Assyrians maintained and utilized the extinct Sumerian language in much the same way that ancient Greek and Latin are used for artistic, religious and scholarly purposes today.

Sumerian language was not deciphered until the nineteenth century of our era, when it was found to be different from both the Indo-European and Semitic language groups. Fifteen hundred cuneiform symbols were reduced in the next thousand years to about seven hundred, but it did not become alphabetic until about 1300 BC.

By 2500 BC libraries were established at Shuruppak and Eresh, and schools had been established to train scribes for the temple and state bureaucracies as well as to legally document contracts and business transactions.

Schools were regularly attended by the sons of the aristocracy and successful; discipline was by caning. Sumerian, the oldest known written language in human history, was spoken in Mesopotamia (modern Iraq and peripheral regions) throughout the third millennium BC and survived as an esoteric written language until the death of the cuneiform tradition around the time of Christ.

It's all Doc's fault...he got me started.

I do love these here puters...I used to have to go and spend hours in the library to research something.

A. God Intended the Laws Given through Moses to Be Binding Only for the Nation of Israel.
The Ten Commands were given only to Israel.

Deuteronomy 4:1,44,45 - The Ten Commands were given to the children of Israel after they came out of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 5:1,6 - Moses spoke to Israel and gave them the Ten Commands to observe. God brought them out of the land of Egypt.

Exodus 34:27,28 - The Lord made a covenant with Israel writing on tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

1 Kings 8:9,21 - The two tablets of stone contain the covenant the Lord made with Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 4:7-13 - No other nation had such a great law as the Ten Commandments.
The Sabbath was given only to Israel.

Deuteronomy 5:15 - Israel (v1) was a slave in the land of Egypt, God brought them out and commanded them to keep the Sabbath day.

Exodus 31:13,16,17 - The Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel like circumcision was (Gen. 17; Rom. 4:11). How could it have been a sign between God and Israel if He had given the same law to other nations too? Would a ring be a sign of a man's special relationship with his wife, if he gave similar rings to many other women?

Today people need not keep the commands revealed through Moses, including the Ten Commands and the Sabbath, for the same reason we do not need to build arks like Noah or sacrifice sons like Abraham. God did not address these commands to us.
B. God Removed the Old Testament Laws Because They Fulfilled Their Purpose.
These laws were in effect throughout Israel's generations

God repeatedly told Israel that various provisions of the law were to last "throughout their generations." This is said regarding:

Genesis 17:9,10 - Circumcision
Exodus 12:14; Leviticus 23:21,31,41 - Holy feast days
Exodus 29:42; 30:10 - Animal sacrifices
Exodus 30:8 - Incense
Exodus 30:31 - Holy anointing oil
Exodus 31:13-17 - Sabbath observance
Exodus 40:15; Numbers 18:23 - Levitical priests in the tabernacle.

[Cf. Num. 15:38; Ex. 30:21; Lev. 7:36; Num. 10:8; 35:29]

All these practices were to endure for the same length of time - throughout Israel's generations. If any of them has ceased, then they must have all ceased since they were all to endure the same length of time. But we have already proved that many of them have ceased, therefore they must have all ceased.

Excellent points Fritz.

As God was the symbol of husband and Israel as the whoring wife, the prophets most often condemned the Israelites. Other times, the prophets accused non Israelite tribes of enticing Israel to sin against her laws. As part of the laws commanded that Israelites not accuse their own brethren, just as they were not to kill their own brethren, this would help explain why the world was always at fault for Israel's bad behavior.

And, there are Christians today doing the same thing in blaming everyone else but themselves.

Doc, like Fritz said, those laws, statutes and ordinances were developed for Israel and no other people. And, laws such as prohibiting murder, theft, adultery were already acknowledged and in force thousands of years before people of Canaan were calling themselves Hebrews.

I watched the History channel about the Hittites (or Haittes), in their becoming one of the great empires alongside Egypt and Assyria. The Hittites developed a library where their laws were written on stone tablets. Both Egypt and the Hittite empire prohibited murder, theft and adultery. Loyalty was part of the greatness of each social order. These things were in existance probably 2500 years BEFORE the bible god was even thought of and before there was a Hebrew people. Maybe I missed something, but I didn't hear anything about whatever god or gods that the Hittites might have worshipped.

The Hittites fought and won battles with Egypt and Babylon. Negociated peace treaties and traded goods and merchandise. There was also an Egyptian Scorpion King before the nation of Egypt came into being with it's much recognized kings, pyramids, and it seems the god Horus goes back still further than history has noted.

As the Hittite empire was just as powerful and wealthy as others of Babylon, Egypt and Assyria, what was said to bring down that Empire was civil war. The Hittites then began dispersing and living among other people throughout the middle eastern areas. Some may have even went back to where it is said they came from at their beginning, Europe. But evidence of their laws, their writing skill, their history as it was, is recorded and saved. All this in evidence that there was no biblical god until invented thousands of years later.

Hmmm...perhaps, Roselyn, we need to look at all this from another angle...

While I too agree that the O.T. laws were solely created for the Israelite nation, (owing to the fact that they were the most evil and despicable creatures on the planet at the time), it is evident by the few lines I posted previously that the God of the Jews was also (meant to be) revealed to the Gentiles, whereupon they had the option to choose if they would adopt, follow, and obey the codes and principles associated with those revelations, especially the Revelations of Jesus Christ.

As such, the Gentiles have never been legally bound to the laws laid down by Moses, but there is nothing written that prohibited them from committing themselves to believing and following that which gave/gives them hope, these primarily being the concepts of Forgiveness, Salvation, and Eternal Life which we find in and through Jesus Christ.

Furthermore, the precepts and codes laid down by Christ were/are very appealing to people of honor, integrity, and compassion, etc., thus giving them an Authoritative Code to live by, a code of ethics and morality to which they could bind themselves as they swear/swore to help those who could not help themselves or were less fortunate than most.

Aside from all this is the fact that part of human nature is the taking, adopting, and/or even the stealing of something that does not truly belong to them that they might gain a benefit of some kind, such as being better able to express their desire to be of service to others. And by what Greater Authority can one express the codes and principles of love, peace, and service - which are already written upon their hearts - than He Who is the Source of those very same codes and principles?

And while it may be true that there are similarities between the God of the Jews and those of past gods who were worshipped long before the Israelites came onto the scene, the spiritual principles have always pretty much remained the same, while since the 'invention' of the Israelite God, (although I would use such terms as 'discernment' or 'refinement' when discussing the origin of the Judaic God), there has been no revelation of a Higher God than the one Christiandom now believes in and serves.

Another way of looking at this, is by recognizing that as our (humankind's) spiritual awareness became greater, then our perspective of God also became greater, and we are now more prone to recognize Him in all things, including that which was honored and worshipped by our long dead ancestors who thought there were many gods.

So in my view, it is not that God was invented by the Israelite people, but that the One God who has always been the One God, was better discerned as being the One God because our minds and hearts became more refined and discerning through the seeking and expression of greater levels of spiritual awareness.

And since that time - when humankind finally perceived the One True God as the one True God, no other Gods have been revealed to us, nor has anyone else impacted the history of man as much as has Jesus Christ, Whom - to date - has represented the highest achievable human expression of the One God's Will on this earth.

As such, He has become one of the most revered icons of human spirituality on the planet, as well as being the greatest and most authoritative role model for those who would adopt, profess, and express His Ways and His Teachings, no matter what race or creed they may have been born into.

The bottom line is that although the Laws of God were never meant for anyone but the Israelites, the Revelations of God were meant for everyone.

And while proving that the O.T. Laws were not meant for the Gentiles, but only for the Jews, may have some small impact towards achieving your desired goals, your main battle will be trying to convince others that the Revelations of God are not meant for Gentiles, for such revelations often come into being as deep and profound personal experiences that cannot be swayed, altered, or overturned by the words or actions of mere fallible humans.

So to use the Bible against those who misuse it to promote hate, fear, and oppression of inalienable human rights, you're gonna hafta convince them that the Revelations of God and Jesus Christ were not meant for them at all...

doc

Roselyn, I've got to say that this is very well-written, and I appreciate it being stated so succinctly. Because there lies the crux of the matter. I agree that at times, if we knew scripture, we need to point out to those crying out about changing laws, sin, etc., their own errors in scripture referencing.

However, where governance is concerned, what you just said above is exactly what needs to be pointed out over and over and over again, until the citizens of the United States GET it. That the law is for everyone, and is not to be dictated by one religious belief or another. That the state is not to interfere by telling churches what they can and cannot believe (though if harm or neglect is involved, the law has a right to intervene, such as when a child is being neglected or abused in accordance with a fringe group's beliefs) - but that the church also does not have a right to interfere in the constitutional rights of a minority group (or any other group for that matter).

Very well put.

I have to disagree with you here, Doc, in that the laws you mention are not just "judeo christian" laws, but were on lawbooks of various nations long before the Bible was ever written. It is not a basic christian principle to say "do not murder" - it is a basic thinking human principle. In fact, every single moral code you find in the Bible (even most of the bizarre ones) can be found in texts and histories that predate the biblical record. Nearly every culture has laws based on certain morals, in order to prevent anarchy.

If they were just Judeo-Christian principles, then what would stop me as an atheist from just going out and getting murderous and just slaughtering people? I'm not a Christian or a Jew, so what's to stop me? It is not Judeo Christian law that is stopping me, it is that I am a sentient being, and as a sentient being and a social animal, I understand that certain behaviors are unacceptable in a social environment. So murder is not on my list of "to do's". Not because the bible tells me so, but because my brain tells me so. My ability to think provides me with a moral code.

Those who break that moral code can be from any religion or non-religion. Because it is not just a religious code.

So, the Constitution was not based on certain Judeo Christian beliefs. It was based on certain HUMAN codes of conduct, no matter what religion a person is. If the Bible cornered the market, all other belief systems would be wiped out by now, as there would be no morality amongst anyone but Jews and Christians.

By the way, though I doubt it would much affect a fundamentalist, Keith Oberman gave a very impassioned editorial about the Prop 8 decision:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVUecPhQPqY

Doc, what is the one thing that needs to be addressed concerning Christian fear of homosexuals? I have found that even Christians who do not believe the bible commandments apply to people of today still use the ancient Jewish laws to prove themselves correct in their assessment of people who are different from themselves. Even though Jesus didn't address the subject of homosexuality directly, Christians will insist on referring to Gods law in Old Testament.

What do Christians fear? Do they fear the possibility of having their private space invaded by "queers" and "lesbo's"? Do they believe gays will pounce on them for sexual satisfaction? Do they fear their children will be sexually molested by gays? Where do they learn these fears? Could it be the story of Sodom and Gommorra? This the fear in public outcry?. Think back to the days when Christians were in fear of blacks for the same reasons. What bible reference did they use to support their claims then? Wasn't it the curse on Canaan, the son of Ham? How many Christians have you heard say that black people are the offspring of Ham, and that God turned Ham black because of his being cursed with a curse? I can remember seeing the interviews with Christians in Alabama and Mississippi and their telling reporters that God had meant for blacks to not be equal to whites. The curse in the bible story had the ability to kill through ignorance.

You said, "you're gonna hafta convince them that the Revelations of God and Jesus Christ were not meant for them at all.."

I can do that, as both old and new testament scripts provide the proof of exclusion of Gentiles then and now. It just takes time to de-program people who have been brain-washed[conditioned] to believe false precepts. And, as more and more people seek truth and examine the bible story, they begin to investigate and do research and eventually discover they don't need what they never had in the first place. The Jesus story tells them the same thing but people haven't allowed their mind to absorb the full context of it.

Thank you Kristopia.

Another point should be made about the bible story, that homosexuality had always been part of humanity. The prophets reasoned against it for Israel in order to promote fertility and thus lots of children to build and supply their nation with warriors. Also, a man "spilling his seed" was just as much an abomination as being gay, and God is credited with killing men who did not impregnant women. Maybe the Right Wing would like to have a go at this particular quirk of God? It would seem more than a few are in grave danger.

Hi Roselyn,
Although what you have presented pertaining to the origin of people’s fear as it pertains to homosexuality and blacks is quite possible, I’m not so sure those fears developed as a result of being exposed to Scripture.

Rather, I lean towards the greater probability that folks are already fearful of what they do not understand, which usually boils down to that which appears to be different from themselves, and that which appears to threaten them in some way.

And when a fearful person seeks answers as to the cause of his or her fears, they often find that Scripture defines, explains, and justifies their fears in a manner consistent with their current state of spiritual awareness, meaning any information they garner will initially support their fearful outlook.

Yet without understanding that they have nothing to fear but fear itself, and that the answer to their fear lies, not in the Bible in the form of whom or what should be blamed, these folks will often look outside of themselves for the answers they seek.

In other words, because they are blind to the fact that they themselves are the source of their own fears, they will project their fears onto anything that makes sense to them while in that fearful state of being, not yet recognizing that their inability to express compassion and love for one another, especially in the face of adversity and/or the unknown, is the real root cause of their fear.

So your question: ”What is the one thing that needs to be addressed concerning Christian fear of homosexuals?” is a very good question, and it should be directed to everyone who has such fears.

And the only viable answer to that queston is this:
"The only concern that needs to be addressed is the inability to do as God commands us to do, which is to love one another as we would be loved."

There is no other more meaningful and pertinent answer than that of expressing love and compassion.

Of course, when you ask this question of those who call themselves Christians, you will need to keep in mind that the initial answer given will often be superficial, and it may well point to what is written in Scripture.

But this answer is merely a mask that they hide behind while they continue in their fears, and it reveals the 'tip of the iceberg' under which we will find a lot more to their fear than the Scriptural answers they have provided.

So once you dig deeper, you will find that Scripture was used merely as a means to justify their fears, while their interpretations often allow them to maintain and cling to their fears, instead of helping them to transcend their fears through love and compassion.

Yet the root cause of all fear often lies in the unknown, meaning that which is not or cannot be understood. And we all know that God is often named as the answer to that which we do not know or understand.

And just as those who look for answers outside of a belief in God refuse to accept that God is the answer to certain questions, so to must you look for an answer that lies within the boundaries of man himself, while offering an enlightened alternative that better expresses the spiritual beliefs of the involved individual(s).

And while the natural human and biological response is to run away from or fight against that which they do not understand, the one action that will help to overcome all fear is that of expressing real love and compassion, which then opens the door to understanding why having such fear does not really promote the joys of loving relationships which God wants us to experience.

So if I were to confront those who fear homosexuals, I would merely reveal to them that we are called to love one another. We are not called to persecute, condemn, exile, or kill those who are not like us. For the fruit of the Christian should stem from peaceful and loving relationships, as opposed to coming from the tree of fear, hatred, and war.

"By their fruits ye shall know them", is the tool you should be using in this endeavor...(re: Matthew 7:16)

As to your very last paragraph, again you are gonna have one helluva time getting around such verses as Acts 10:45, as there are those among us who have experienced and received similar revelations and enlightenment from God, thus negating anything you might present as it pertains to the Gentiles being excluded from the Love and Grace of God.

Doc

Yeah - oh, and let's not forget that we should ask them (since they're looking at Levitical law) if they have a Penis Checker at the entrance to their churches. After all, it is an abomination for any man who has crushed testicles, funny moles on his testicles, disease, or anything scarred or wrong with his penis/genetalia, to enter into even the building where worship is happening. I've volunteered to be the penis checker before, but nobody has taken me up on my generous offer yet. No idea why

Doc said: "The only concern that needs to be addressed is the inability to do as God commands us to do, which is love one another as we would be loved."

God commanded the Israelites to kill homosexuals. Jesus didn't change the law. These commandments were established for Israel only and for the purpose to encourage fertility and lots of children in Jacob's name. These commandments of law were given before the Israelites were ordered to invade the land of Canaan. Lots of little Israelites were needed to create adult warriors. Without adult warriors there could be no slaughter of non Israelites and taking of land. Fertility, lots of children, was a must. Therefore, killing Israelites who did not want to reproduce children was not considered murder, it was considered the right-eous thing to do for Israelite conquest and to keep the Israelite god alive in mouth of the prophets who were chosen to speak in his name. Those things were in ancient days before artificial insemination. Those things were in the ancient days before Israel developed her own nuclear weapons of mass destruction. Israel no longer needs thousands of warriors to take land or defend herself from her middle eastern neighbors.

When Jesus said "by their fruits ye shall know them", he was keeping observance within his Jewish laws. "Fruits" were works of the law given to Israel. Jesus never taught a Gentile doctrine. The story presents the body of Christ as Jewish and those Gentile converts to Judaism. Else, Gentiles were excluded in their uncircumcised and law-less state.

The bible god is not presented as a universal god of the whole world. His position and place in seat of authority is among the Jewish people. Just as God excluded Esau[Edomites], he also excluded all other people in the world who refused to convert to Judaism[Israel]. God held claim to only one people[seed], and called that one people HIS namesake.

What did other people in the middle east think about the Hebrew/Israeli god excluding them? They probably didn't give a crap as they had their own gods and own ways of living a life in social order of human beings.

ps. You know what the bible itself says about "revelations"[dreamers of dreams], ..

You have seen NOTHING. The prophets were opposing the idea that any other flaky visionary held authority over their position as the elect mouth of God.

The only way Gentiles can be excluded from the love and grace of God is by their not committing themselves to the protocol of God, meaning "salvation is of the Jews". Jesus wasn't recruiting the uncircumcised and those who refused to observe his Jewish laws. His way, truth and life was in his Judaism.

Pauls gospel for Gentiles was a defeating position[for Gentiles] that stands on lies, distortions, and a conspiracy. We need not know who the character Paul was; what we need to understand is the WHY of such obvious trickery.