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Mickey
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Post subject: Gays vs. God: There is no Other Side Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:44 am |
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Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:04 am Posts: 584
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I think this is a good article: Quote: There is no Other Side By: Candace Chellew-Hodge Gays vs. God. It's a dichotomy the press just loves. We see it all the time: some religious leader from the far right is trotted out onto a national talk show or news show to denounce the latest civil rights crumb that may be tossed the GLBT community's way. Some spokesperson from HRC makes a weak defense against the Bible thumper since actual logic can't hold up to the "God does not condone this sinful lifestyle" canard. It's too bad this is a false dichotomy. There is no "other side" to homosexuality. To say that the religious argument against homosexuality is the "other side" of the issue is like saying the flat earthers are the "other side" of the global warming issue. There is simply no "other side" to the issue of our very lives. Yet, this view that religion is a valid argument against homosexuality persists because it's easy to tag homosexuality as a "sin." In fact, a recent study from Ellison Research found that 52 percent of those surveyed thought "homosexual activity or sex" was sinful. In this case, the researchers define "sin" as "something that is almost always considered wrong, particularly from a religious or moral perspective." That may seem like a powerful argument for validating religious views as the "other side" of the issue of homosexuality. After all, if more than half of those asked listed us as "sinful" doesn't that make it a viable counter argument? No, it doesn't. If it did, we'd see some far right religious leader on television arguing against left-handedness and interracial marriage. These were once considered "sins" in the sense that they were "almost always considered wrong particularly from a religious or moral perspective." Those opinions didn't make these issues sins for all times and, in the end, the religious argument against them proved to be a spurious "other side" of the issue. The same will eventually hold true for homosexuality. The Bible's definition of sin is a bit different from that used by the researchers. It isn't concerned with social ills that may be considered wrong for all time, but instead is more concerned with personal responsibility. Both the Hebrew and Greek words used for sin mean simply to "miss the mark." Sin means that we may know the right thing to do, but fail to do it. It's true that the larger social mores often dictate what would be "right" or "wrong." Our ancestors may have "missed the mark" in society's eyes by giving freedom to a slave. But that person understood a deeper truth - the sacred worth of each human life - and was vindicated in the end. Those who condemn homosexuality today as a sin will, in the future, be just as much of an oddity as those who used religion to fight left-handedness and interracial marriage. Religious arguments are not the "other side" of these issues, no matter how long and loud the arguments may have been. Argued prejudices are always dying prejudices and those who use religion to shout down or condemn gay and lesbian people will soon find themselves on the wrong side of history. That's why Jesus' counsel is probably the wisest: "Judge not, lest ye be judged." LINK Comments?
_________________ Oops. My Karma ran over your Dogma.
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Roselyn
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Post subject: Re: Gays vs. God: There is no Other Side Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:50 am |
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Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:57 am Posts: 1556
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The Christian religious argument against homosexuality is a valid argument - for them. When will the homosexuality community start pointing this factor out to the Christians? When will non-Christians begin pushing Christianity back into its church domain where homosexuality is not allowed? Once the primeters of "place" is set, then maybe people would begin minding their own business in and out of the church. Especially since separation of church and state[non christians] is a biblical imperative for Christians.
I never see any gays touching on this point of separation. Is it because they want to be part of the Christian church? Have they not read the bible where God curses them in their same-sex behavior? Why would they want to worship a god who commands they be killed and taken out of the kingdom of God - Christianity? I see absolutely no place for gays in the Christian church, also no place in the Jewish body of believers.
So how do gays figure that god loves them?
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The Real Logos
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Post subject: Re: Gays vs. God: There is no Other Side Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:01 am |
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Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 9:44 am Posts: 1361 Location: Member #240 in the Foothills of the Spice-laden Mountains.
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. Religions have a right to exclude....(even religions of love--strange and contradictory as that may seem). However, there are many religions or segments thereof that welcome gays and grant them total equality.....accept them as pastors and leaders. So acceptance and participation in religion is an easily attainable goal. One problem comes when some gays insist on pushing their way into religious groups that don't want them, and this also......seems a little illogical and puzzling to me. But the major problem, at least in America, is the harassment of all gays by FundaGelical Christians who take their religious bigotry outside their church and into the public arena. I agree that society should focus on limiting Christian religious bigotry to the inside of the Christian churches......and banning public expressions of religious hate and punishing such expressions with prison terms. Pax! 
_________________ The fate of the country does not depend on how you vote. The worst man is as strong as the best at that game.....it depends instead on what kind of man you drop from your chamber into the street every morning. -- Henry David Thoreau
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.sola
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Post subject: Re: Gays vs. God: There is no Other Side Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:58 pm |
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Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:58 pm Posts: 315
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If religions have the right to exclude they should also be inelligable for tax write-offs.
_________________ "Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be." Abraham Lincoln
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Roselyn
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Post subject: Re: Gays vs. God: There is no Other Side Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:53 pm |
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Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:57 am Posts: 1556
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.sola wrote: If religions have the right to exclude they should also be inelligable for tax write-offs. Who decided that churches should be tax exempt in the first place? The establishment clause doesn't mention excluding churches from paying taxes, only that they are free to exercise worship as they choose. One could start a church with the free exercise of worship being tattooing all members. Where does it state that church funds from tattoo profits is tax exempt?
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MessengerBoy
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Post subject: Re: Gays vs. God: There is no Other Side Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:53 pm |
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Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:56 pm Posts: 258 Location: St. Louis, Missouri
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Roselyn wrote: Who decided that churches should be tax exempt in the first place? The establishment clause doesn't mention excluding churches from paying taxes, only that they are free to exercise worship as they choose. I'm no tax code expert, but churches are exempt from US taxes by virtue of their non-profit status, as are other non-profit organizations. However, it is my understanding that even prior to the establishment of the United States government, churches have long been exempted from paying taxes. I believe Congress and the Supreme Court justify the tax exempt status because non-profit, charitable organizations benefit the public by provide a stabilizing influence. Anyway, that's the legal reason for it, Roselyn.
_________________ "For what is faith unless it is to believe what you do not see?" - Augustine
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Roselyn
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Post subject: Re: Gays vs. God: There is no Other Side Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:01 am |
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Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:57 am Posts: 1556
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MessengerBoy wrote: Roselyn wrote: Who decided that churches should be tax exempt in the first place? The establishment clause doesn't mention excluding churches from paying taxes, only that they are free to exercise worship as they choose. I'm no tax code expert, but churches are exempt from US taxes by virtue of their non-profit status, as are other non-profit organizations. However, it is my understanding that even prior to the establishment of the United States government, churches have long been exempted from paying taxes. I believe Congress and the Supreme Court justify the tax exempt status because non-profit, charitable organizations benefit the public by provide a stabilizing influence. Anyway, that's the legal reason for it, Roselyn. But it's obvious that churches are making huge profits, at least the mega churches are. And the money gifted doesn't go to local or state charity pruposes, else there'd be open records of that type accounting, maybe printed in newspapers and announced on TV. Or do churches announce their profits in such ways?
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MessengerBoy
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Post subject: Re: Gays vs. God: There is no Other Side Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:25 pm |
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Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:56 pm Posts: 258 Location: St. Louis, Missouri
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Roselyn wrote: Or do churches announce their profits in such ways? Non-profit organizations do not have profit to announce. Publicly held companies are required by the SEC to make certain financial disclosures public. These disclosures are available on the SEC website, plus the companies are also required to provide them to the public. (I don't know of any non-profits that are publicly held, and I don't know if that's possible. I suspect BAPSFINALWORD could tell us, if he's around here, that is.) Privately held organizations are usually under no obligation to make financial information public, although, they may voluntarily choose to do so, or if ordered by a court, or some other legal authority, i.e. Congress. So, in a nutshell, if a church is organized as a non-profit entity, it should not have profit to report. If it *does* actually make a profit, then there are various laws and regulations that have been violated and it could be held liable. That's partially what Charles Grassley's televangelist probe is all about.
_________________ "For what is faith unless it is to believe what you do not see?" - Augustine
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