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An excellent article that cuts through the right-wing hysteria surrounding late-term abortions. The rest of the article is at the link.



Comments?

Another article about why late-term abortions must be available:

A Doctor's Story: Why I and My Patients Will Miss Dr. Tiller

I'm wondering why, with late term abortions, C-sections are not performed? With all the medical technology available today is it not possible for "a viable infant" to be sustained? My impression from the article is that late term abortions are valid only for the business side of this medical field. Abortion is big business otherwise there would not be such willingness to fight to keep it in business. Money is to be made and without all the usual risks of legal suits etc., as in other medical fields one might choose. This big money business is another reason why I think Planned Parenthood and other pro-choice groups do not intend to offer senseable birth control methods such as promoting vascetomy's and tubals, which are safe, 100% effective in preventing pregnancies and doesn't put anyone's life at risk. Not to mention the sexual freedom these procedures offer in peace of mind. These methods are cost effective, and when people decide they want children they can have the procedures reversed and thereby become responsible parents.

The article also swings back and forth in defining infant and fetus; and hints at "abortion" even at complete birth. Whether the physician rules that an infant is an infant after complete gestation and actually born at nine months time, still it is his decision whether or not the infant is viable. My thoughts are that at some point in time plain ol common sense has to be the rule and women have had that common sense since humanity began.

And there is available to women and teen girls many avenues to choose instead of abortion.

I would like to see some exact numbers on women whose life was actually threatened by giving birth compared to women using abortion as a birth control method. I would also like to see available the aftermath of abortions, where the body parts are sold to research labs et., the pricing per limb, or whole. Has anyone ever considered the abortion industry is much like chicken plants? The only difference maybe, is that we don't have fetuses or infant parts available at our local supermarkets.

Throughout past history of humanity women have aborted their infants one way or another. And in those by-gone days the number one reason was shame and dishonor of producing a bastard child. Society and cultures were not as kind as they are today. And this is partically why Roe v Wade came into existence; we were still an honor/shame society. Backroom abortions were done not for the health and mental stability of the woman, but to make sure she was not shamed in the society of American pious and religious norms. Having a bastard placed the woman in a position where she was called "ruent" she could never be expected to "get a man" for a husband. In those days a woman was ridiculed, and ridicule was shaming, and shaming extended itself into every area of her life. She may have been able to get a job, but not an upscale position. She may have married but not to her choice, for she would have had to settle for what would have her. More often than not, that became an unbearable situation in a life of misery and remaining shame. She would have been afraid to even think about entering a church, and never with her little unmentionable on her hip. Legalized abortion came to her rescue and as more and more women began to exert their equal rights, the stigma of a ruent woman lessened, became more acceptable, and the slur of shame in the "bastard" disappeared.

I am just curious how many patients did Tiller refer to an adoption agency. How many patients did
he suggest should take contraceptives of some kind? On how many patients did he use a sonogram to
show the mother what her "fetus" looked like? Did they all have health problems? Did all the mothers
who came in there for late term abortions have health problems? Mental and physical health could be
anything that the doctor said it is. When is a "fetus" viable? When he can breath on his own? When
his organs can function on their own? If that is the case, then we need to terminate every patient
in the hospitals who are on life support because they are not "viable". Who decides when the "fetus"
is viable? The abortionist?

His "Planned Parenthood" clinic didn't prepare his patients for parenthood at all. Just the opposite.


clean'

I'll pay attention to you and those that think as you do,when you all line up to adopt or offer to pay for a child's support...then and only then you have a say in what otherwise is not your business.

While each and every pregancy termination case has unique parameters upon which the decision to abort is based, it is standard protocol to determine the health status of the mother and the fetus, and to talk about adoption, the use of contraceptives, and any options which could result in life for both the mother and the fetus/baby, while the use of diagnostic tests such as ultrasound, bloodwork, and MRI's, make it possible to determine what those options might be. Also, there are always costs involved whenever the determination is made to terminate a pregancy, not only in terms of money, but in mental and physical terms as well, not to mention the risk of never being able to become pregnant again.

As far as fetal viability goes, it used to be that premature births below 28 weeks would often result in disability and/or death of the baby, but technology has reduced those rates to a lesser degree. Currently, if the births occur between 18 - 24 weeks, there is a 50/50 chance of survival, although the child will have a high probability of neurological disability due to the immaturity of the lungs to get oxygen to the brain if it does survive. Under 18 weeks there is a zero probability that the fetus will survive.

After 26 weeks the fetus will usually be able to survive on its own without disability, although life support measures are often utilized until at least the 28th to 30th week of development. There have been a few cases where babies born at 21 weeks have survived to adulthood, but these are very rare.

Ultimately, what determines fetal viability is 'Nature', although the weight/mass of the fetus, the week of gestation, the overall (physical/mental/spiritual) health and ability of the mother to bring the fetus to term, along with all the procedural risks, are all taken into consideration and weighed before making the determination to abort, and that determination is based upon strict legal and ethical protocols in conjunction with all the other factors.

Rest assured that all that can/could be done is and was done.

What we as Christians ought to do, is express understanding and compassion towards these physcians, as it is a heavy burden on their hearts and souls to perform these tasks which they have no doubt been called [by God] to do. In other words, who's to say God has not chosen them to perform these tasks? After all, God has used many a person to terminiate the lives of those who would have otherwise become totally corrupted in, by, and of the world.

doc

Ros......I think you just reached a new height in confused thinking.

I sympathize with the women who have abortions. I harbor no ill will toward them. I realize
most of them are tormented by the decision to abort the baby.
Some, not so much...

I read the article that Mickey posted, and I read many of the comments. Some of the
comments were heart wrenching. However, many said they made the decision to have
an abortion simply because they didn't want the baby.
I can't sympathize with that. Of course it's legal, but that doesn't make it right.

I was under the assumption that doctors were to save lives. Then, that raises
the question about whose lives are saved? Who makes the decision about which life
is to be saved? What gives them the moral authority to do so?

You say that maybe God has chosen them for this task. Of course, maybe He didn't.
Again you say that God used many a person to terminate the lives of those who would
otherwise become totally corrupted in and by the world. Everyone is corrupted by the
world to some extent. Some more than others. Lenin, Stalin and Hitler come to mind.

Now, that presents a dilemma. Is abortion performed for moral reasons, medical reasons or financial gain? If its' for moral reasons, what's the moral standard that we are to use?
No one can doubt that some abortionists perform this procedures for purely monetary
gain, without compassion for the mother or the baby. That is not a good reason to perform
an abortion.
If it's for medical reasons, is the health of the baby given any consideration?
There is validity to the argument for the mothers' health. Shouldn't the mother see
a doctor to determine if she is healthy enough to have a child? Especially, if there
is a family history of problems with pregnancy.

When the baby in the womb is healthy and the mother is healthy, where is the justification
for an abortion? But we know that many abortions are performed for reasons other
than health issues.

That is the problem that I have with abortion.

clean'

But it isn't your problem now is it.

I happen to know of three women not much more than girls really...no education since they weren't able to finish high school and their parents have to help raise the child...one has two by different men another is older and has four by two different men and the third has three by three different men...the two older ones have government housing,welfare and medicade so these children will follow in the parents footsteps more than likely with not much chance to ever have much of anything and probably a job flipping burgers or selling drugs.

I don't know where you live but I live outside of K.C. and I can assure you there is about a five mile square area south of downtown you do not want to go to if you value your life...there is a shooting or two nightly so I really don't believe youngsters born in what I describe above have much of a chance at a decent life...many of these women are trapped in the lifestyle of their parents and have children they can't afford to raise or don't have the money for an abortion.

That's why you and those that think like you do should pony up some money to help instead of sitting back and ignoring what really takes place when children have children...you should realize what really happens when a woman is forced to have a child...in more cases than not it isn't a soda pop picknic for anyone involved.

We have four children so I know what kind of money it takes to raise them and the governments dole isn't even close and government housing isn't much either...I'm not sure at what age medicade runs out but the parents have no health care no education not much chance at a semi decent life and many of them are on welfare.

Is it really enough just to say..."well,they are alive" but what sort of life is it...

Abortion is no walk in the park, and I can't say I'm for it either. But it's not up to me, as to whether or not someone else should or shouldn't undergo the procedures, as that's up to the people who are directly involved. Now if it were to enter into the circumstances within my own circle of friends or family, (and it has) then the most I could do is be supportive in a very difficult situation.

But basically, I am of the belief that we should keep our noses out of other people's affairs, as we have enough on our own plates to take of with without sticking our forks into the plates of others.

I don't live in the suburbs. I live a few blocks from city hall. I know about the things that
go on in the inner cities. I live in quiet neighborhood, but I'm surrounded by neighborhoods
that are no so quiet.

One of the things that could be fixed is the public schools. Instead of getting sexual
education, the students should be learning how to read, learn real history instead of
the revised history that they are getting. They should be taught how to function in the
real world. Most of the kids who graduate from High School are functionally illiterate.

Washington D.C. had vouchers for the inner city children, until Obama cut it off, and put
them back in the Public Schools. The private school graduates scored consistently higher
than P.S. Thanks to the National Education Association, a socialist run union, it's
not going to get any better.

So, you want me to pony up to help them. I already do, and so do you, and so does
every tax paying American. I also "voluntarily" give part of my paycheck to feed the
hungry here in America. I make regular donations to the Childrens' Miracle Network.
I am ponying up as much as I can.

So then, are you saying that "no life" is better than a "bad" life? Interesting concept...

Many of the teenage mothers are misinformed as to what options are available to them,
or not informed at all. I'm not angry at the mothers, I am angry at the abortionists who
take advantage of them.

Yes, I do have plenty on my plate, and there are things that I have to deal with in my
own life. But if a needless tragedy happens, does having plenty on my plate deny me
the right to be outraged? We all have seen things that we want changed. Does that
mean that we are trying to tell someone else what to do? No, it doesn't. Does it mean
that we shouldn't be concerned when things go bad for someone else? No, it doesn't.

Is it so hard to understand that people care about the babies being aborted?
Would you have a baby aborted if there were a way to avoid it?

I also have four children, and if I asked them, they would all say, "I'm glad that you
didn't abort me."

Too bad we can't ask the thousand babies aborted today what their preference is.

clean'

You could ask them, but since they were just fetuses, they wouldn't understand your question even if they could clearly hear it (which they couldn't) and wouldn't be developed enough to speak.

Why don't you just admit that you're too materialistic and greedy to pay enough taxes to fund viable public schools??

All that prattle about ponying up as much as you can.......LOL, such dancing around......really, you should try out for that dippy dance competition they have on television.

That's some stuff to think about alright.

First, I think Christians should concern themselves with their own business of member welfare and stop trynig to boss those outside the church. This would eliminate many a problem and it would please the God they worship; for the God they worship doesn't give a crap about Satans children as they're called. (if they're not God's, they're Satans) In fact, allowing those outside the church to abort would decrease the number of enemies of the church and the Godly would expand to weld more power of their own. Whatever the non Jewish women were doing in Jesus day, he had no concern for their welfare or their abortions. "Feed my sheep" did not mean trying to boss the world outside the body of Christ. Jesus didn't run through Rome protesting against women there who were aborting their infants. Jesus knew that the lesser the population of Gentiles, the better it was for the Jews. So, Christian discipline is the key but alas, there is not much to be found in Christianity as evidenced.

Second, why should stupid and irresponsible people and dumber than shit enabling taxpayers think I should up and volunteer to adopt their illegitimate children or even provide anything for the assholes who won't raise their little baby factories to do anything except to get knocked-up? When it comes to health care, they have it at the ready. These system savy sponges the enablers call "children having children" know how to play every taxpayer funding funded program made available. And taxpayers keep creating more. They are definetly educated on how to rob honest responsible people blind. And I think teens who have babies for money[welfare aid] have been exceptionally educated by all the taxpayer programs available. If anyone wants sympathy or pity I'm afraid they won't get it from me. And more people than not are unwilling to break the cycle of defeat. And it is a defeatist system.

So, instead of "ponying-up" some money I say 'tuff shit'. I'm tired of hearing all the whinning about these children having children. Get 'em fixed.

btw, did I mention that parents who help raise their children's children are the very enablers of the problem? Parents who have raised their children should be enjoying their own life, vacationing in the Bahama's or something else. Instead they tie themselves down with "the problem" that will eventually kill them physically through stress and lack of money. Driven into poverty because they were not smart enough to say " hell NO!, feed that brat bread and water, whatever it takes to raise YOUR child. I raised you and my responsibility for childrearing is over, zip, done."

Life isn't fair. Life isn't a rose garden. However, getting rid of the thorns makes for a smoother cruise down life's hiway.