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Well, in my opinion Rogertutt, that's right up there with some of the best excuses for the bible god I've ever read. Just change god into whatever suits your fancy, but, he'll still be the monster against all mankind he was created to be. He can't help it, for men took him to pen. So when he's an evil god full of hate and loathing, just reinterpret his psychotic rantings as love. "IF it makes you feel good, then do it." That way you will never feel any guilt for the way god kills people in whatever way. Just say its Gods will today - "should we do evil that good may come?"

I know you believe what you believe Rogertutt, but I just can't go along with your mindliness.

And the corollary of what I believe is that I am no doubt grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve universal transformation for everyone.

Good to see you back Rodger. The existence of 'god' is quite logically proved in the teachings of Peter in Clementines.

But those who put their fingers in their ears and hum a loud tune will never hear **** and **** will leave them to their ignorance.

And yet even that temporary unbelief, to us who do believe in a God Who will eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better for everyone that it happened, will also be included in what God will transform, since we believe that God is fitting each person into His master plan in a way that requires their own unique set of experiences.

In other words, with the God we believe in, untimately speaking, nobody can lose for winning.

Evil will always exist if there is good. Good will always exist if there is evil. Dualism is mind made; the reality is that there is neither good nor evil; just the pure repose of no mind.

A by-product of the existence of evil is suffering.
Since I believe that all suffering will be transformed by God into something better that it happened for everyone, I also believe that all evil which causes suffering will come to an end too, whether it be only in the mind or not.

My only personal suffering is due to my long unrequited love for the Ice Queen. Otherwise all is fab in Rick'sworld.

**** has set out the rules. **** has defined the dress code. **** will allow what **** allows and no matter how much high sounding piffle is spouted, **** won't budge an inch.

Don't believe? Don't obey? Won't believe? Won't obey? So what? Who's the loser?

But I still contend that evil and good are different sides of one coin called dualism. Suffering, I believe, is caused by the ego and the ego is the product of the illusion of separateness. God will transform all things by bringing all things back into him/herself in the unity of oneness.

Well, Jedi, you might be right, but it all sounds very complicated to me.

It isn't really. The philosophy is called "non-dualism".
One idea is that the consciousness we call God was one. All was one and God was in no-time and was no-thing, was formless and at rest. Then for some reason that I don't understand yet, God separated into many forms and these forms were individualized and separated one from another and from God. This is the beginning of suffering and dualism and was most likely the big bang that started the universe. But ultimately all of this is unreal and there is really only one being, eternally at rest.

Well, maybe it is a little complicated.

For me it simplifies the issue by being able to believe that God will eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better that it happened for everyone, no matter how evil and suffering with all of their ramifications are analized and perceived by us.

I was invited back by forum management today to "join the fun."

To Roselyn re "Many are called but few are chosen."

Here is my take on it.

This phrase comes from Matthew 22:14 as the conclusion to a parable Jesus is tellings that concerns the kingdom. Of course in Jesus' lifetime He went only to the Jews ... the "sheep of Israel." And this parable is intended to explain that while all of Israel was called, only SOME were fit to enter the wedding festivities. Most within Israel had rejected the king, and could not enter the feast ... they were not chosen. This rejection by the Jews continues, and much later Paul would explain that this "callousness" had come upon Israel until the full complement of the nations may enter (i.e. the body of Christ).

So the fact that many are called and few are chosen pertains to Israel, in the day that Jesus was proclaiming the kingdom to be established upon the earth. When this was rejected, Israel was set aside as the body of Christ is gathered (as in this present day).

But none of this can take away from the final climax of human history, when God becomes All in all ... when as in Adam all are dying, thus also in Christ shall all be made alive ... yet each in his own class. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

IMHO those that use the "many are called but few are chosen" to say that only SOME will be saved are taking the parable out of context. It is true that only SOME were chosen in that day during which Jesus spoke, but once God's plan for all mankind is fully revealed ... after the death and resurrection of Christ and after the subsequent revelations made to the apostle Paul following the rejection of the kingdom message by Israel ... we see that ALL mankind will be saved.

I found the following very helpful.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... -saved.htm

As I have said many times, the story is about the Jews in Israel as sons of Jacob.

The Jews rejected Jesus because they knew their laws prohibited any one man from playing god in sole authority over them. Jesus could never be accepted as a god-man. The OT god condemned Jesus by his sole authority saying, "there is no savior, no mediator, no man, above or equal to me". Pauls gospel was another gospel, strange and not compatible with OT scripture, and condemned because it had no place in the kingdom of god which was Israel. The NT story has no benefit to anyone, not Jews or Gentiles.

The fabricated story of a Hebrew god invented by men will never, as you call it, "be all in all". Not all men are gullible enough to buy into that lie. More and more people are rejecting the bible for reasons I have previously explained, recognizing ancient tales for what they are and moving on to more better things. The world has advanced in knowledge of science, biology, and these disproving the supernatural bible story and its god of men's inventiveness.

I am a "Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist."
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... tution.htm
See especially the very last paragraph on that link.

I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.

That includes both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering.

I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.

I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do.

I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.

Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”

Hope that was fun.