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A friend I loved very much committed suicide on Monday and I have been out of work all of this week an emotional wreck and doing my best to hold it together. Could I ask that any here who pray might keep me in your prayers, thoughts. I sure could use them. Thank you so much. (This is the first time I've had access to a computer ... or I would've asked earlier.)

Naomi

Oh Naomi, I just saw this.....I am so sorry to hear about your friend. I'm definitely sending prayers, good thoughts, and lots of cyber-hugs your way. Please let us know how you're doing.

May your friend rest in peace.

Thank you, Mickey. I've just been so very, very sad .... The sorrow is very hard to shake ... it's very deep. This person was once my fiance, years ago. It happened in another good friend's home -- the very home I just moved out of -- and she and I discovered his body. He shot himself. It has been a very traumatic week ... all coming on the heels of just learning that I may actually only have as little as a month to move out of my "new" apartment due to owner foreclosure. And heartbreaking on another front as well ... as I just received a very cruel communication from another person I love. (I sometimes wonder about the level of meanness that we, as humans, can sometimes stoop to ... without our ever giving thought to its effect on another's heart.) It's just been one helluva very hard week.

Thanks, Mickey ... you always know the most perfect and kind words to speak to people here .... Thank you. And thank you for all who read my request for prayer and have done so. Thank you all.

Mickey ... I have a slide show I'm wondering if you can post here somehow ... I don't know how to do it (and it may not even be do-able), but I'm going to send it to you via email. It really speaks to the preciousness of life ... and is quite beautiful.

Naomi

Naomi, what a horrible experience and a sad loss for you. Next week has got to be better than this one has been.

It's been my experience that mean people are insecure people who try to draw self-esteem from hurting others.....feeling they are powerful enough to control the emotions of another. May I humbly suggest that mean people aren't worth wasting your love on. They have already shown themselves to be takers, not givers, so there's really no foundation for an equal friendship with such people. And until/unless they have a deep heart change, their abuse will continue.

Hugs, Naomi, you're a strong woman and you will come through this storm.

Hiya, Mickey ...

Thanks for your empathy and encouraging words. Yes, this week WAS better than last, and the sorrow has subsided quite a bit. I've managed to release my friend to the care of the One who knows the hearts of us all and to give up my need to know and understand WHY.

About your take on mean people ... here is my take -- My experience of mean people is that they are also usually narcissistic. And here is what I've learned about narcissism (as my father was its poster-child, often angry AND mean)! It's just the flip side of one same coin: abuse. (The other side of that coin being a sense of inferiority). I think that narcissists -- people who "toot their own horns" ad nausaum, brag about their exploits, speak authoritatively and arrogantly most of the time, blithely dismiss others' views and feelings via snide, nasty attacks, who always see where others offend THEM and not how they offend others -- have learned to cope with abusive pasts not be developing an inferiority complex but by developing a superiority complex. In my opinion, narcissists are usually people who've had deeper trauma and abuse in their lives than all others. And this abuse was for long periods of time and from an early age. (I've done quite a bit of research on it, and the "experts" say the same thing about people suffering from what they call "borderline personality disorder.")

A hallmark of a narcissist -- they find it very difficult to acknowledge that they hurt people by their behavior -- whether by doing something or by NOT doing something; whereas another person who feels unworthy often goes overboard the other way and tries to please people, often to their own detriment.

A narcissist has near zero capacity for empathy and finds it very difficult to admit weaknesses;
whereas another person feeling unworthy is overly conscious of others' feelings and of their own weaknesses (often making it harder to overcome them because what we concentrate on we usually get more of!)

A narcissist talks about how wonderful they are;
whereas another w/ that same sense of unworthiness must remind themselves that they are wonderful!

And here, imo, is the most distasteful thing about narcissism: harsh judgment of others. It almost becomes a full-time occupation as they actually can obsess about how rotton other people are! In my view, judging others is merely a huge defense mechanism developed because they themselves have been harshly judged! One of the hardest things for a narcissist to see is how their actions contribute to breakdowns in relationships -- whether w/ family, friends or lovers. Narcissists are nearly oblivious to how their actions affect others. In fact they exhibit such lack of concern for the feelings of others that some describe them as "cold as ice." All they seem capable of seeing is how others offend THEM. (In my view, this is a form of extreme self-protection rather than the character flaw of selfishness.) I think it is one way they learned to protect themselves from severe abuse. It still makes being in relationship with them extremely difficult, especially so if they are not willing to take on the work of healing.)

Another thing about narcissists -- and here I'll speak from personal experience -- if they actually do nice things for a person it is usually to feel good about themSELVES. So they can be doing a "godly" or "kind" thing for another all the while loathing the other person in their heart and thoughts -- and then actually think of themselves as noble and saintly for doing so under such extreme conditions of the other person being so disgusting! They can even feel noble and righteous for their "self-sacrifice" never seeing that they've done untold damage to the other by their hidden disdain! They are not really being nice for the sake of the other but so THEY can feel they are a good person! They will sacrifice honesty for politeness because there is too much risk for them in being honest. What is important is not that they are truthful with the other person, but that they simply look AS IF they care!

Narcissists find it difficult to be humble; they find it very difficult to engage in honest self-examination. Why? Because being right and looking good in the eyes of others is the only way they feel good about themselves. It is the only way they balance out what really lives in them as a result of ABUSE: a deep sense of feeling unworthy of love and acceptance by others. This damaged sense of self is the root of what gets called "arrogance"; it is at the root of what gets labled as "disdain" for others.

All this nasty, dishonest behavior is rooted in the abuse they suffered, but the narcissist sees that as psychobabble. It's not. To admit that they are in need of some sort of healing is something the narcissist finds extremely difficult to do. In my view from research I've done, narcissistic behavior is merely an extreme form of self-defense! It is the way a person found to protect themselves from all the crap they were told about themselves (explicitly or implicitly by how they were treated) or by what they received at the hands of caregivers who, instead of nurturing us emotionally, butchered us emotionally ... and is often even MORE pronounced in people who, in addition, suffered harsh physical abuse as well. In short, narcissism is the result of violence perpetrated upon a person. Narcissistic superiority is simply a manifestation of abuse. As is a pronounced sense of inferiority a manifestation of abuse. The ironic thing in a narcissist is that they can recognize symptoms of abuse in others (for examile, a need for another to grow in self-worth) but they cannot recognize that same symptom of abuse in themselves. They do not realise that their sense of superiorty and judgmentalism is rooted in the very same abuse as that experienced by a person who feels inferior! The two are flip sides of the same coin: abuse.

So there you have my "treatise" on meanness and narcissism! From what I've learned, abuse is the cause of most "shortcomings" in people -- not bad characters. (It's why we need to be kinder and gentler with each other, I think, and stop dismissing others curtly and disdainfully when we see some character flaws in them. If they're allowing God to let light into their life enough to "sift and refine" them, those flaws are most likely not permanent. But that is a big IF.) "Love God and Love thy neighbor" are still what's most important to God, I think. And we cannot do either if we ignore the work of our own healing when time after time God shows us the need for that healing. And God usually shows people that need with every new broken-down relationship! And He'll keep showing the need that way until we DO something about it.

In closing this "treatise" of mine, I think we ignore at our own peril the reality that abuse is the cause of our lousy ways of treating ourselves and others. People feeling inferior treat themselves badly; people feeling superior treat others badly. Our job is to do the emotional work of healing from that abuse -- however God directs us to do so -- and it's my fervent belief that God expects us to do that work. Why? So that we STOP treating ourselves badly and so that we STOP treating others badly -- and get on with the business we came here for, loving.

Again, Mickey ... THANK you for your concern ... regarding my friend who died. You've been a real source of comfort to me.

Naomi

ps: In my life, Louise Hay's work has been instrumental for me. Her CD's of "You Can Heal Your Life" are really inspired, I beleve, and I recommend them highly to anyone serious about healing from abuse.

What an excellent post, Naomi! This definitely should be its own thread. Would you copy and paste it and post it on General Discussions?

I'm so glad to hear you're doing better. Hugs!

Yes, Mickey ... I'm feeling a lot better ... and now with my favorite season about to "spring" upon us, I'm feeling even better. I have loads of work ahead of me -- packing up my life, yet again, finding a new place to live and then moving my "stuff" (for the second time in 4-1/2 months) now becoming my primary task. A part of me is very tempted to sell and give away everything and high-tail it right back to my beloved Hawaii (who knows, some day I just may), but now doesn't seem the right time.

About moving this post -- I feel a bit awkward/embarrassed to be promoting something I wrote by giving it its own thread. But you can feel free to do so, if you think it may be helpful or generate POSITIVE discussion. It is merely my view (based on a good deal of study ... but study that was prompted by an "ah-hah" moment while meditating!), for what that is worth. Because it makes sense to me, doesn't mean it will to most ... which is why I'm hesitant to personally bump it to its own thread. I leave that up to your judgment.

Naomi

I guess the guy who died is your pal's hubby - they did have a volatile relationship but it's a tragic end. It's such a pity that people choose suicide when there are numerous alternate options they can explore - I guess the suicidal impulse must close down the imagination.

Regarding narcissism (not that I'm an expert or have any personal experience thereof) you might be right in your description. I would add, with your kind permiso, that there is an inverse narcissism that delights in wounds and see insults were (arguably) none exist.

My final addendum on narcissism and meanness:

A person w/ certain narcissistic traits (I'll call them NTs) won't acknowledge they have them. Why? Because the essence of that proclivity is a staunch unwillingness to admit flaws or weaknesses (and certainly not a need for "healing"). Humility allows a person to see a weakness or flaw in one's self when it comes up. A person w/ NTs, quite the opposite. They are short on asking, "What is true of MYSELF in this situation that I don't see but need to see?" The major thing I've learned about so-called narcissism is that it's developed in response to trauma/abuse, to counter the sense of "not good enough" that horrific treatment (abandonment, neglect, hate, etc.) allows to take root in people's souls. It seems people w/ these tendencies had way more than "normal" family wounds. In other words, there was DEEP abandonment, EXTREME neglect, SEVERE physical abuse, CRUEL spoken words, etc. A persona of perfection and imperviousness to pain is taken on strictly as a protective measure -- much like a porcupine extends its needles or a turtle pulls into its shell or a blow fish puffs itself up. They become as if nothing can touch, hurt or bother them ... internalizing all. They have vaulted away pain so deeply, they'll allow no one to touch it, not even themselves (except in very drugged-out or drunken states -- or otherwise unguarded, vulnerable moments. Then in anger and authenticity the bitter pain spills out).

The tendency is to bury honest feelings because expressing them might lead to being "out of control" or an "unsafe encounter" of some sort. Burying feelings (not feeling them or sharing them openly) therefore becomes habitual. This habit -- this "vault locking," if you will -- deeply impacts a person's emotional health. Often what then develops is an inability to trust others in any meaningful way. It's a vicious circle. Lack of trust grows as emotional health declines and so those using narcissistic ways of protection do not risk sharing their true feelings. They dare not risk their feelings will be met with understanding (or even contriteness and positive change) on the part of the listener rather than anger or disdain ... and ultimately, rejection -- for far too often their feelings were deemed totally insignificant. It's a mixed bag -- and so when it comes to intimate relationships, things get all bottled up and altogether quite repressed. And the truth gets swallowed -- buried, hidden -- rather than shared.

So where does all this unexpressed "stuff" (legitimate pain and anger) go? Some of it oozes onto their relationships, but way too much of it stays stuck in their own bodies/minds, and in extreme cases can manifest itself in what others call "mental illness." Why? Healing is never considered an option to deliverance; in fact they belittle those who know all too well that unexamined trauma/abuse has real negative effects on how people relate and in truth IS something to be healed of. (For things like being beaten ... ignored ... neglected ... cursed at ... left or abandoned … or otherwise grossly unloved, etc. DO have emotional impact on us.) So they muddle through ... albeit in enormous pain and sometimes seething inner anger. But the truth oozes out nevertheless. It's just that everyone else who encounters them -- and is let in just a little -- sees it but them. Again, the hurdle to overcoming this extreme form of self-protection is raised all the higher because the need to heal is seen as illegitimate: self-indulgent and unnecessary.

The bottom line ... narcissistic ways are rooted in self-defense and self-protection (NOT self-centeredness). Unfortunately, continuing to self defend and self protect in such a negative way keeps one from admitting any kind of weakness or any need of healing. That takes courage, humility and an act of God.

CH: "I guess the guy who died is your pal's hubby - they did have a volatile relationship but it's a tragic end. It's such a pity that people choose suicide when there are numerous alternate options they can explore - I guess the suicidal impulse must close down the imagination. Regarding narcissism (not that I'm an expert or have any personal experience thereof) you might be right in your description. I would add, with your kind permiso, that there is an inverse narcissism that delights in wounds and see insults were (arguably) none exist."

Hippy: The person who died was my former fiancé from years ago, who my pal was renting a studio apartment to in her home. (We've come to think he may recently have been diagnosed w/ terminal lung cancer. That, coupled with his having lost half his work hours due to a labor cutback, may have been what brought on his suicidal despair.)

To address your comment on narcissism, it's one thing to wallow in one's traumatic past, ad nauseum (if that is what you meant by "delighting in wounds"), but to dismiss out of hand that it has NO impact on one's personality is folly. Recognizing that effects of trauma can and do interfere with having loving, fun and healthy relationships is not a form of narcissism -- inverse or otherwise. It's wisdom. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that not doing the work it takes TO heal from trauma and abuse dooms one to have broken relationship after broken relationship.

PS: Your friend, Lizzy, is a big fan of Louise Hay, and similar authors. I think that is part of why I liked her so well. She and I shared a lot of the same philosophy … and taste in books and music too.

Naomi

PS: to your comment above re: suicide -- You wrote, "It's such a pity that people choose suicide when there are numerous alternate options they can explore - I guess the suicidal impulse must close down the imagination."

You just gave a clear description of what I couldn't put into words when I was talking with his wife and employer about this sad situation. A therapist friend of mine said the same thing you did, only slightly differently ... she said it's not that people want to really end their lives; it's just that at that decisive moment of pain (the "suicidal impulse"?) they just want to end what they see no way out of (a "closed down imagination"?) She said it's the pain they want out of ... not life, per se. A chaplain once spoke on the subject saying that in every suicide two things are real to the person -- helplessness and hopelessness.

A deep sorrow comes over me at times still ... it's only been a little over two weeks. We were once very close.

ps ... my condolences on the loss of your friend, Julie, as well.

All very sad......all we can do is try to learn from such things.

We must take care to be gentle with each other while still absolutely refusing to tolerate mean people.

I have dealt with my share and I now have the power to kick any mean person out of my life immediately and without discussion.

That's nice.