"A fellow atheist shakes his head at atheists"

Mickey · **Joined:** Sun Aug 03, 2008 12:04 am **Posts:** 584

From the Denver Post:

Quote:

A fellow atheist shakes his head at atheists

By David Gleeson
01/04/2009

I don't believe in the supernatural. This includes God (or gods). In the literal sense of the word, that makes me an a-theist (as well as an a-leprechaunist, a-goblinist, and so on).

Being an unbeliever in a predominantly Christian country can be a bit daunting at times, and I certainly understand the desire of my fellow unbelievers to speak out against hate, injustice, cruelty and prejudice, particularly when wrapped in a cocoon of religious rhetoric and passed off as love.

But the way some atheists go about it just makes me shake my head in wonder.
Take the recent flap in Olympia, Washington, where a seasonal message from the Freedom From Religion Foundation was erected next to the traditional Christian religious display in the Capitol building.

The message the FFRF chose to display was this: "At this season of the winter solstice may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."
The FFRF is run by Dan Barker, a former fundamentalist preacher who abandoned his Christian faith many years ago. His story, as told in his book Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist, is a fascinating one, and Dan is obviously a smart guy, but I cannot imagine how in the world he let this message get past his laptop, let alone out the door and encased in a plastic slab in the rotunda of a state Capitol building.

No wonder many people think atheists are an intolerant and crotchety group.
Asking for reason to prevail is a nice sentiment, but it's laughable to espouse reason when you completely abandon it yourself.

There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Really, Dan?

You're one-hundred percent sure about that? I must have missed the memo, the one that demonstrates with absolute certainty the non-existence of these supernatural entities.
I agree there is not one shred of scientific evidence in support of gods or devils or heaven or hell, but a lack of evidence only gives us ammunition to disbelieve, not flat-out deny.
Atoms, gravity, the strong nuclear force, and quantum mechanics existed for millennia before humans discovered them.

There are, undoubtedly, a host of other mysteries yet to be unraveled. Perhaps the supernatural is one of them.

Granted, that possibility is remote, but reason dictates the door must remain slightly ajar. The FFRF has fallen into a faith-based trap that is as worthy of ridicule as the beliefs they seek to condemn.

The FFRF concludes its message by making a blanket declaration that is neither fair nor accurate.

My wife's mind is not enslaved when she lights the Hanukkah candles and sings the blessings that have been handed down to her through the generations

She is simply taking part in a tradition that is important to her identity as a Jewish woman.

Religion certainly can harden hearts and enslave minds, but so can atheism.

The FFRF is taking the very worst that religion can muster and using it to paint everyone with the same bold brush strokes, a tactic perfected, ironically, by radical religious groups seeking to brand all nonbelievers as immoral devil-worshipping heathens. How easily the FFRF stoops to the same level. Pot, meet Kettle.
I have to give credit to the governor and state legislature of Washington for agreeing to post the message in the first place, though.

Giving atheists a place at the table of ideas in the public square is not exactly good for the reelection coffers.

At the same time, I wonder why someone didn't rap his or her knuckles on Dan Barker's thick skull and explain to him that the best way to promote reason is probably not with an irrational and insulting sucker-punch aimed mostly at decent, hard-working people.

A simpler and gentler message would have sufficed: "At this season, may reason triumph over fear and superstition, and may we renew our commitment to life, love, and the bonds of our shared humanity." That's a message, I think, believers and nonbelievers alike can agree on.

LINK

What do you think?

The Real Logos · **Posted:** Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:08 am

I think the Atheist message mirrors the Christian message in its blunt intensity and offensiveness.

Why shouldn't it?

I'm for equal opportunity in insulting the other person's belief about God.

Atheists have been polite and superior for far too long. Why shouldn't they be just as childish and offensive as the Christians?

Pax!
8-)

JFerric · **Joined:** Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:29 am **Posts:** 100

Doc seems to be very handy at "constructing" things. Perhaps he could provide us all with some help, plans, directions with this:

Quote:

CONSTRUCTING A SPIRITUAL BULLSHIT DETECTOR
Circumstances led me to go beyond assembling a tool kit for assessing the reasonableness of belief-systems to construct what I like to call my spiritual bullshit detector, a series of caution signs to help guard against overbelief, irrational and destructive worldviews, and idolatrous commitments.
Sam Keen, "Hymns to an Unknown God," p.110.

Do you have a functioning spiritual bullshit dectector? The point is that most atheists are just as "fundamental"as their bible thumping counterparts.

doc · **Joined:** Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:57 pm **Posts:** 340

Most folks have a built-in BSD that runs more on intuition than anything else, although it may not always be totally functional. Even so, most folks will also recognize BS when they hear it. So what to do?

I'd say become a gardener at that time, thank the person for the 'gift' of BS they have bestowed upon you, and then till it into the ground that is laid before you so that some good might come out of it...

Ham On Rye · **Joined:** Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:19 am **Posts:** 82

Oh, please. This didn’t even make the Top Ten Instances of Christian Bashing

While I would probably have looked for some humorous phrase instead, I’m not sure anything an atheist put up would ever be acceptable to Nativity-erectors. These words; other words; just a symbol—they would still find something offensive about FFRF attempting to make the point ALL beliefs should be represented by government.

We live in a nation where the second worst case of Christian bashing is criticizing Sarah Palin (Arggg!) and the third worst case is Obama defaming Christianity by calling himself a Christian when he really isn’t one. The worst being the audacity of homosexuals wanted to be married, of course.

In such a nation, could anything be acceptable to Christians at a holiday they consider their own?

I am glad other atheists criticize the writing—it is a free country. We are free to critique each other. While I like the author’s suggested phrase, I think the point was to emphasize atheism, and I am not sure his wording would quite do it either.

Maybe—“’Tis the Season to Start Using Reason. There is no god, so stop spending money on plastic people in fake stables. How about helping other humans for humans’ sake and leave god-belief out of it?”

Naw—that wouldn’t do it, either.

What would you (as in anyone) suggest an atheist put on a sign or make as a symbol that could stand next to a Nativity and make the points:

1. There are people who believe there is no God.
2. They have an equal right to be represented by their government with the same level of enthusiasm as God-believers are represented.

Jedi Mind Trick · **Joined:** Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:21 am **Posts:** 376

I think it's good that some atheists are willing to point out irrationality in their own camp. It's refreshing...

Roselyn · **Joined:** Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:57 am **Posts:** 1556

"Religion can harden hearts and enslave minds, but so can atheism."

I disagree with that statement as it trys to accuse atheists of being just as guilty as religionists; and in this statement from Gleason, his protectionism of Judaism and Christianity is evident, and moreso of Judaism due to his wife practicing her rituals of tradition, her belief iows, that he would argue is more superior than Christianity. He doesn't come right out and say so, but his prejudice is there undercover of his ill fated arguments against atheism.

"Giving atheists a place at the table of ideas in the public square is not exactly good for the reelection coffers."

Sound like a threat? Is Gleason frightened that atheist might bring to the table of ideas a more true assessment of religion by those who wrote the hatred and death wish on people? Certainly we can't expect the religionists to think reasonably, for they haven't done so in 2000 years of their debauchery against mankind. Religionists are never satisfied in peace and goodwill as they, by their very hate filled nature, demand that all people serve their damnable goals of injustice, discrimination, conflict in wars. And religionists do love war, as proven by the present day situation, so much so that if you don't join-up with them, you are accused of being unpatriotic.

The two most horrific religions in the world today are Judaism and Christianity. Both want atheists to fight for them against the right of that other religion to survive. Both Judaism and Christianity are death cults. Take your choice to die for. As an atheist I think there is a more reasonable way to exist in this world.

The Real Logos · **Posted:** Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:16 am

If the situation in Palestine were reversed, the Palestinians would be brutalizing the Zionists just as badly as the Zionists are brutalizing them now.

Similarly, if the Atheists were the majority in America, they'd be treating the FundaGelicals as badly as the Fundagelicals are treating them now.

Similarly, if heterosexuals were only ten percent of the population, the homosexuals would be persecuting them just as badly as the heterosexuals persecute them now.

There is no end to the need to stop people from brutalizing each other.

Which is why I've pretty much given up on people and instead try to focus charitable donations toward animals. At least animals don't know any better.

Humans should.

Pax!
8-)

Roselyn · **Joined:** Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:57 am **Posts:** 1556

Well certainly Logos human beings are a detestable bunch. I'm sure that there are sometimes when even you can't stand yourself. :lol:

We all get angry at others for many different reaons but people who believe in the bible god seem to go off the deep end more often than not and want to kill and injure their fellow humans. It must be a built-in neo-monolithic disorder that appears to be related to family ties. Science has overlooked or yet to discover this compulsive degenerative disorder. And the strange thing is, only Jews, Christians and Muslims are carriers. Atheists have displayed NO symptoms of its unusual behavior pattern. Could it be that Jews, Christians and Muslims are inbreeding? If so, would it help to separate each of these groups for study, maybe resettling them in separately in different parts of the world, and not allowing them to have any association with each other? I mean, its really difficult to study these groups when they're running lose amongst each other.

I figure a good scientific study would take at least three to four-thousand years. :lol:

The Real Logos · **Posted:** Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:09 pm

It has nothing to do with religion, you twit.

Have you heard of communists?

Someone should do a good scientific study on you.

You claim Atheistic superiority and yet you constantly fan the flames of hate.

Pax!
8-)

Jedi Mind Trick · **Joined:** Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:21 am **Posts:** 376

Roselyn wrote:

We all get angry at others for many different reaons but people who believe in the bible god seem to go off the deep end more often than not and want to kill and injure their fellow humans. It must be a built-in neo-monolithic disorder that appears to be related to family ties. Science has overlooked or yet to discover this compulsive degenerative disorder. And the strange thing is, only Jews, Christians and Muslims are carriers. Atheists have displayed NO symptoms of its unusual behavior pattern.

Are you sure about that? The Soviet Union was based in part upon atheism. Pol Pot is another. Oh, and we can't forget Chairman Mao. Jim Jones was also atheistic in his cult. And there are weird atheist groups like the Raelians. Seems some forms of atheism can emulate their theistic friend's bad habits pretty easily.

Roselyn · **Joined:** Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:57 am **Posts:** 1556

The Real Logos wrote:

It has nothing to do with religion, you twit.

Have you heard of communists?

Someone should do a good scientific study on you.

You claim Atheistic superiority and yet you constantly fan the flames of hate.

Pax!
8-)

Calm down - take a deep breath and relax. Communists? That's funny. :lol:

Shall we play 'peek-a-boo'? Talk about pent up agression, it just oozes out of your every post.

Atheistic superiority? Well, hey, if I'm right, I'm right. I know it anoys you but I don't really care.

Twit? :roll:

Now just because you can't wrap me around your crappy BS, or make me believe that you are not a multiple personality disorder, doesn't mean that I think you are anything other than a big-mouthed shit-for-brains asshole.

:lol:

Roselyn · **Joined:** Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:57 am **Posts:** 1556

Jedi Mind Trick wrote:

Roselyn wrote:

We all get angry at others for many different reaons but people who believe in the bible god seem to go off the deep end more often than not and want to kill and injure their fellow humans. It must be a built-in neo-monolithic disorder that appears to be related to family ties. Science has overlooked or yet to discover this compulsive degenerative disorder. And the strange thing is, only Jews, Christians and Muslims are carriers. Atheists have displayed NO symptoms of its unusual behavior pattern.

Are you sure about that? The Soviet Union was based in part upon atheism. Pol Pot is another. Oh, and we can't forget Chairman Mao. Jim Jones was also atheistic in his cult. And there are weird atheist groups like the Raelians. Seems some forms of atheism can emulate their theistic friend's bad habits pretty easily.

So? The U.S. was based in part upon atheism. Pol Pot is another scapegoat, and Jim Jones was a Christian who worshiped the bible god. Raelians believe in UFO's and aliens or something.

I don't think Atheists emulate their theistic counterparts. Atheists bad habits are their own, of their own making. Some example bad behavior on their own without accusing theists of being the guilty party. Whereas Christians are always blaming someone or the world for their own bad behavior, their bad luck or whatever.

Jedi Mind Trick · **Joined:** Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:21 am **Posts:** 376

Roselyn wrote:

So? The U.S. was based in part upon atheism.

No it wasn't.

Roselyn wrote:

Pol Pot is another scapegoat...

That's your argument? Apologists such as you need to do better.

Roselyn wrote:

Jim Jones was a Christian who worshiped the bible god.

Incorrect. He was an atheist who said that he used the church to lead people to atheism. He was very critical of the bible and Christianity.

Roselyn wrote:

Raelians believe in UFO's and aliens or something.

...and they are self admittedly atheistic in their beliefs.

Roselyn wrote:

I don't think Atheists emulate their theistic counterparts.

I did not say all atheists... just some of them. Just like some theists (not all) are bad examples.

Roselyn wrote:

Atheists bad habits are their own, of their own making.

The same could be said by theists...

Roselyn wrote:

Whereas Christians are always blaming someone or the world for their own bad behavior, their bad luck or whatever.

That's a very broad brush. Only people with a chip on their shoulder paint with such brushes.

Roselyn · **Joined:** Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:57 am **Posts:** 1556

Why do you have such a broad chip on your shoulder Jedi?

I'm not an "apologist". My argument is that Christians blame atheists[unbelievers] for their problems. And there is reason for this, it comes from the bible and Judaism in that of casting blame on the world. The Christians adopted that form of excuse for their sins in their religion.

Do some research on Jim Jones. He led his Christian followers away from what he viewed as ungodly Christianity. He thought he had a better way of being Christian. He sometimes thought he was Christ or doing the work of Christ as biblically instructed, - he often referred to his following as "little children".

Jones was never an atheist. As reported by survivors, he remained Christian until the end.

Raeleans are self admitted non-Christians.

Any others you'd like to use as scapegoats?

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